Dating and seducing

So she laughed at you? Seduce her sister. Her sister accuses you of trying to seduce her? Seduce her anyway. But not until you make her pay.

It occurs to me that changes such as (for the first time) sleeping with your friends (see Ray’s comments below), having or a threesome, wife-swapping or other activities where we move our comfort zones, we open our minds up to new possibilities, new experiences, to be able to explore the concept that you can make your fantasies your reality, that you can take that step and do those things that you only dreamed of before take courage. And it takes courage to make that leap in everything. Most men, when they first approached a woman, had to face their fears, insecurities and negative self-talks to force themselves to take action. And so it is with every new challenge, where you have to do what is uncomfortable, what is out of your ordinary experience in order to go after the things you want. And you don’t know what will happen; maybe your girlfriend will be turned on when you propose a threesome as opposed to take offense that you would bring someone else into your private intimacy.

Maybe that reserved appearance of that attractive woman is just a cover to wild tigress who worries that she may appear too easy or hungry. In fact, the more I learn the more I think that women are as eager to seduce men as men are to seduce women, it’s just that most men don’t go after them in a way that lets them express this. Instead of thinking about the negative, we should think of the positive. Lately, I find that when I am out with intelligent women the subject of limiting beliefs comes up (I guess because it is on my mind a lot lately). I know that I still deal with my own limiting beliefs which I am aware that I allow to prevent myself from obtaining everything I want out of women and relationships. And these e-mails document part of my journey to break free from my own hesitations and limitations while learning about women and myself in the process.

Recently I was out at a bar/restaurant where I ran into Carol, a very intelligent young lady who does business consulting and who I had introduced to some people who engaged her for some work. This kind of changed our relationship slightly from personal to business. I have known Carol for about 10 years and when I had met her we went out once or twice. I remember getting her back to my place, we were sitting on the bed and I made a move to kiss her. She laughed. Clearly, this was not working and I never dated her again and had been out of touch with her for a long time up until about 6-8 months ago. Things clearly had changed and I could see that she was looking at me differently. But at the bar/restaurant about a week ago, she was there with and so introduced me to her sister. While Carol is not bad looking (I am sure most guys reading this would find her quite attractive), her sister is definitely hot. To be honest, I take a perverse pleasure in sticking it to Carol because she had laughed at me even though I know that we are both different people today and I shouldn’t do that.

So I have this very warm, intense conversation with her sister who gives me her number. The problem with her sister is three fold: one, she is divorced with three kids; two, she’s too old (my age, 42) to get involved seriously with because I would want a family if I got that serious with someone (and not someone else’s); and three, she’s too intelligent and wise about relationships which makes her dangerous and I don’t want to get roped in because of reasons one and two. I have a friend who met a woman (I started up with her and a friend of hers on the street at the beginning of last summer, he went out with her and I went out with her friend) who has two kids and who is of a different religion (his family would have a very hard time with this) but he got deeply involved and is struggling to get out of it and I don’t want to get into the same situation.

So I am internally debating with myself as to how far do I want to take this with her sister. I decide to try and just close the deal and keep my perspective on things, so I call her up and invite her over for Tuesday night. Tuesday is the one night she can’t make it, so, pretending to check my agenda, I suggest Wednesday night which she agrees.

I tell her to just come over and we’ll talk and get to know each other. Wednesday night I speak to her and she agrees to come over for 8:30. At 9:30 she calls me up, very upset that as she has thought about it she is very uncomfortable with what’s going on with me. Firstly, the business of checking my agenda as if I was squeezing her into my schedule bothered her. She doesn’t date very often and when she does she wants it to be special and I made it like a business appointment. Then, I had the nerve to invite her over to my place for a first date. She thought I was a gentleman, not a womanizer (which she defined as a man constantly in search of a parent replacement, looking for something that isn’t real, etc.). And I insisted on it (she had asked me if I was sure that that was what I wanted to do and I said yes; this was not insisting in my book but I didn’t argue with her). Not to offer to take her out for a drink or a coffee, to pick her up, nothing. Well I listened to all of this and never admitted to anything. I said, “What did you think? Did you think I was going to invite you over to my place and then seduce you?”

I made comments to the effect that she ought to get real, that she isn’t getting me that easily. And it is true because even though she is very attractive, I am hesitant about getting roped in here and I believe my hesitation is part of the attraction to her. I am sure that most guys chase her for her looks (she in fact confirmed this to me when we did go out finally last night) and are only interested in nailing her. In the end, she calmed down and started to wonder if she had jumped to the wrong conclusions so she suggested we get together and we made plans for Friday night (last night). So I drop by my neighborhood flower shop and buy her a red rose before I pick her up. This shocked the hell out of her (“So you are romantic, after all” she says) and I took her to the local Sheraton for drinks in the lobby bar (this is a very nice place).

She did a lot of the talking and spoke freely about her sexuality, her life, her having never completely surrendered herself in a love relationship, etc. The conversation went extremely well and was quite deep and I could tell she was interested in some affection when we were leaving (when they stand so close to you that you almost have to ask for a room to breathe, the odds are pretty good). So I was warm but to a degree kept my distance and at the end of the date as I left her off she hinted about speaking with me again which I just didn’t say anything about (I wanted to leave her wondering if I would call again).

She kissed me on both cheeks but leaned into the first one in such a way that I could have made out with her but I didn’t take the bait as I have to make her pay for thinking that I was anything other than the best thing that could ever happen to her. Stay tuned for further developments.

FR: Lair XMas Party

Since September, I haven’t gone out much. Maybe half a dozen times. Fatigue, work—just didn’t feel like it most of the time, so I’m quite rusty and need to get back in the game. The night of the party, I figure I might as well not sleep at all since I’ve flown out at 6:30 the following morning. So I put my dad up at my place and meet the gang at about 10:30.

I’m evidently late, as guys are scattered around, food and beer leftovers on the table. One brother with a chick on his arm greets me:


The girl is visibly amused by the name. Then the rest of the pack greets me the same way.

Since I’m late, I’m not sure about the social dynamic going around, so I sit back and take it easy. After a while, I get seriously bored and want to migrate. I tell the guys I’m going out to get some street action and a feel for the crowd. Some of the boys try to extract girls, and I suggest they take off to the lounge next door, a great place for kino and rapport/seduction building.

I take the others to a club. Very lightly populated. Once inside, I head straight for a bar at the back and start socializing with the barmaids. When a place is dead like that, they are generally very receptive (they’re bored crazy) and provide a great warm-up while building social value with neighboring chicks (who see you aren’t intimidated by big boobs and tight dresses.)

There is this 7-rated 2-set standing next to me, both a little chunky but upbeat. I see my fellow bros grouped together and I have a bro next to me, so I talk about getting some drinks. I order tequila shots, following the barmaid’s recommendation. The 2-set is still there: proximity IOI. I open with the first thing that comes to mind (which is not always the best idea, especially when you’re rusty): “Hey, I wanna ask you something. Which of my friends do you think is better looking?

Amusingly enough, they point to a different group, who look more in party mode. Nevertheless, the girls are very responsive, and some good banter, C&F, and Push-Pull ensue. For instance, they throw a line back at me and I look scandalized, stick my ass out, and tell then I’ve spanked for a lot less, which cracks them up. I put my hand up to signal a spank is coming. Their eyes open wide in anticipation, and then I start spanking
.myself! I brag about how good my ass looks, and how hard it is, which provokes general hysteria.

The girls tell me they’re best friends. They brag about doing things together, like going to the Canadiens because one of their dads has season tickets. I reply with, “Great, I’m gonna marry YOU!” But before I even finish my sentence, they cut me off, screaming, “Nooooo, we’ll marry each other!” So I follow with DYD’s classic, “Then I’ll divorce you and get half your tickets,” generating more hysteria.

I entertain them both for a while, but, rusty as I am, I eventually start running low on inspiration. They pull out their cells, so I pull out mine to create some distance. I sense they are on a party rush. I’m having fun, but I’m not really attracted to either one. I think about elevating the game to a more sexual level, but I hesitate because I feel it’s still too early. The chicks aren’t ready yet, plus I don’t have a wing with me to separate them.

Then a couple of my bros show up and take the entertainment relay, getting both chicks going, but with no real game plan. I move around the club for a while, and later, see the 2-set being worked by these 2 guys from the other group I mentioned earlier. I was pretty sure the girls wouldn’t respond well, and sure enough, 10 minutes later, I see them moving around the club by themselves.

A little later, I see the same guys working the 2-set again. I keep an eye on them for educational purposes, but after 2 minutes I lose track of them. Maybe 10 minutes later, I see one of the girls alone with some goof. I break them up and she tells me she lost her friend. Another 5 minutes pass, and I see the other girl isolated by the same guy that was working her before until the bouncer removes them from the reserved seating.

Anyway, I’m getting bored and sense it’s time to move. I corral the gang and suggest we go to another club.

By now it’s about 1:30. When we arrive at the next club, the gang ends up in the back while I’m stuck near the entrance. I have $1.76 in cash left on me and I go to the bar to suck some barmaid’s pity, which fails miserably (Biatch!)

I return to my spot and see 2 babes floundering. Perfect targets! I open the blond one with, “Hey, how far do you think I can go in here with a buck and a half?” We talk about stuff. She brags about having skied for 25 years, since the age of 3, and how she beat some famous skier in competition. I return the favor by saying that if I didn’t kick her ass at skiing, I would leave her behind in go-kart racing.

More banter and teasing. She asks me about my age, I tell her to guess. 32? No, higher. “But I’m not good at this!” she says. Then she asks me to guess her age. 28—duh!

Turns out she goes skiing with her ex from a 9-year relationship. I offer to take her on a challenge and go skiing with her. I # close her and continue the conversation.

I eventually start running out of inspiration again, and I turn away slightly to gather my thoughts. Out of nowhere, another bro walks in on my set and starts talking to the girl, and I sense she’s not really receptive. (What’s with guys barging in on my sets, anyway?) I move in between them with, “Is this guy annoying you?” and the interaction resumes. We chit-chat for a few minutes, I engage in some light kino, and then ask her:

“So, how good a kisser are you?”

She can’t really answer, other than by saying that she’s good.

“On a scale of 1 to 10? Let’s find out.”

I move in slowly, and she is definitely receptive.

Me: “Not bad. I’d give it at least an 8.”

Her: “What?!? I’m better than an 8!!”

More kissing.

“Yeah, you’re not bad at all.

She seems reassured. More kissing & kino.

Me: “We’re not going to have sex tonight, that’s for sure.”

I don’t know where this came from, but I’m sure glad I started this frame. I think it’s FINALLY the integration and internalization of the material. I actually managed to think about it, on time, in the heat of the action—a first for me! She has this look on her face that I haven’t seen before. A mixture of satisfaction and uncertainty. Did I mean it? Why would I talk about sex? Why would I say that?

Me: “Because I’m flying out to Florida in 3 hours, and my dad is sleeping in my bed.”

More kissing, and now she’s really going at it. I interrupt, saying, “I’m not kidding, I’m actually flying out soon.” And I can see the look of disappointment on her face. Shit, her reaction hits me like a ton of bricks. I’ve realized there is a way to fuck chicks you make out within a club—by being non-linear!

I see her friend looking at us and I decide it’s time to move on, so I kiss her goodbye and close the interaction. As I leave her, my group shows up, pulls me away and we move to get our coats.

A good night, overall.

Here’s the rub

Ross Jeffries vs. a hot girl
who do you relate to?

I will be in Toronto March 4th through 8th attending the Tad James Seminar on the 6th & 7th (probably will also be taking the optional “Huna” day on the 8th as well). I am planning on going out most nights I am there so don’t hesitate to contact me if you are in Toronto and would like to meet.

Hardwood: I currently have a challenge. After the Atlanta seminar in August, I practice ss on anything wearing a skirt like I was told. Here’s the rub: I met this widow 35, a 5 on a good day, ran pattern after pattern, ss language, etc
., she’s totally gaga over me. However, she’s not the problem, she has a 24-year-old sister that is a stunner and she’s my true goal. She will kiss me but nothing else because she knows how crazy her sis is over me and feels guilty. I’ve tried to battle this with multiple sexual patterns, but no luck, her damn sister’s feelings are paramount. Any suggestions?

My Comment: Find her sister another guy. Other ideas out there?

Tony: Another more books for your list (I’m reading it now, I’ll report back what I find): LoveTypes (ISBN 0380800144) by Alexander Avila 1999 Avon Paperback, US$13.50. You must have an extensive list of resources by now. I hoped you wouldn’t mind posting what you have come across thus far, so I can add what I have in addition.

My Comment: I have a sort of collection of How to Pick Up Women books dating back to when I was a teenager. I have some really old, out of print books in boxes at my parents’ house that I really have to dig out and write about one day.

Tony: I have read the Love Tactics I & II and found some helpful stuff, but found most of it supplication material. It’s still interesting to see what the rest of the world is reading. The main lesson from all this is what Ross taught: resetting the frame to allow ss to work, rather than forcing ss to work in the dating frame. I like to also study beyond Ross’ stuff and am an avid reader. Ross’ stuff is excellent and I want to absorb even more than ss. I didn’t get to meet you when we were in LA in January. Maybe at a future seminar, perhaps.

My Comment: Sorry to have missed you in L.A. I am always trying to get to Ross’s seminars if I can coordinate with everything else going on. So if you are at one, ask around if I am there and I would be more than happy to meet anyone reading this.

Bill: I just came across this book “Never Be Lied To Again” by David J. Lieberman. Sounds interesting. I read some of the reviews on Amazon. In your saying have you had many problems with lying HBs? Finding out if they are lying out to you I think would make it easier to call them on their shit. Or even possibly change your tactics in the seduction process. According to this book, you can know through the language that is being used. Much like using an HB via structured use of the language. With proper use of the language, one can detect deceit. Whats your opinion?

My Comments: Very interesting topic. Actually, my ex, when I met her, lied to me about absolutely everything and I found out about each and every lie. For some reason, I ignored these warning signs as if there was a higher purpose for me to get to know her. Normally I would run when this happens, but this time I didn’t. I guess overall I am better off for having known her and am still close friends with her. But that was the first and only time I pushed beyond the warning signs. As far as the general saying goes, I usually don’t run into the lying part too much. I usually run into interest or non-interest. How do you know someone is lying to you when you just met them? Most of the things they will tell you-you can’t verify at that moment. It is only after getting to know them that you find these things out, I would think. But I find that if you listen carefully, people will tell you everything you want to know which they may not necessarily have wanted to tell you. Ross says that you can find out everything before they even open their mouths but I am not sure I fully comprehend that one. But when you listen, it is amazing the stuff that comes out of people’s mouths.

Len: My friend can date 4 women at once because he gives them what they need. Even at 16, this guy was very successful with women and often enticed and slept with women in their mid-20’s. He says they come to him “to be loved”.

My Comment: He’s right. Women are turned on when you not only give them what they need but tell them you are dating other women, and can be shocked and excited when you let them know that they can date other guys (it isn’t realistic to tell them that you can go out with other women and then expect them not to go out with other men. The nice thing about it though is that if you treat them the way they want to be treated, they have no interest in other men and you get to have your cake and eat it too).

Bill (Commenting on my observations about talking to a woman when she is with a guy): With my limited time I have had the opportunity to try some stuff in front of a couple of boyfriends. You can be covert with what you are doing as most people won’t pick up on your hand gestures, as you link all the good stuff to yourself. However, in one situation I did say “as you move away from these things” gesturing to the boyfriend. He did ask for clarification. I reassured him that I was speaking about working too much. This other girl I had a chance to elicit her values. So when I invited her to lunch on a whim on Valentines Day, she accepted and then showed up with the boyfriend. Ok, so I took control of the conversation it was mostly her and I talking. Toward the end he pissed her off, he hadn’t notice what she was wearing the other day. Well she just starting working over some pineapple. A metaphor for him, I realized, but he didn’ pick up on this. So I pointed it out to him. Then I told her that you know that someone has deep RESPECT for you when they understand these subtle actions. Anyway, the unspoken message is I respect you and he doesn’t. She understood it. This one girl I will keep working on. I also have learned that most guys have no idea how to please a girl. And girls to fall into relationships by default as well. When I see this I consider the girl Fair Game.

Bill (Commenting on “Stumbling a bit on your words helps a lot in making it sound genuine, not like you are a real slick and do this all the time. Make it sound like you are making up what you are saying on the spot): I remember him talking about this at the seminar and used it with Savanna, the girl waiting to swing at the hotel.

My Comment: I was racking my brain to remember her name for some reason. This was at the hotel of the L.A. ss seminar; the Saturday evening the conference rooms were the site of a swinger’s party and there was a parade of couples going in there with some extremely hot and wildly dressed women. Savanna was waiting in the lobby for her “date” to show up, and a few guys from the seminar (Bill in particular) started talking with her. She was hot. I don’t know if Bill noticed, but she first distanced herself from him when she mentioned that she was waiting for her “friend” to show up, implying that it was a date. But as the conversation continued, she mentioned that she hadn’t seen him in six months (so she calls him to get together for sex). The perfect example of you should never assume things when a woman is with a man — this one was only with this guy to be able to get into a swing party and trade partners. Go figure.

Bill: I’m not sure that I want to stumble on my words a bit.

My Comment: I find that this is a good technique to stop and collect your thoughts for a moment. It also makes what you say sound more genuine, not like you were ready to recite something.

Bill: It might not be hypnotic. So what I do is to focus her attention inward and use with tonality and pauses. Seems more and more that I am going into state myself when I do this. And the words begin to flow more easily. Like I said I was caught off guard recently when I easily tranced out a couple of girls.

My Comment: Same thing happened to me the first few times I did it. You have her in the palm of your hand and you are so amazed it happened that you just don’t know what to do with it. If you can’t think of anything, you can always point out that she may enjoy a new direction for a change.

Bill: I did that the other day. And take it deep inside yourself. I think I have her anchored to go into trance when I use trance speak. My term for tonality, pauses, quiet voice and inward focus.

Bill’s niece Buffy has a friend Inga who claims to be gay (I suggested that she may be bi but he will need to find that out) who is into nude modeling and is going into a business venture which has her putting on a party where she is looking for bi women. I suggested to Bill that he tell her to put some ads on the Telepersonals or other phone line systems. There are a lot of bi women on there. She could also record an ad for you, one saying that she and her boyfriend are looking for women, etc. I think you would get some surprising results.

Halbster: (Commenting on what to say to a woman when you are telling her that you date other women): Another approach is acknowledging that you’re with a lot of women because you enjoy being with them, but what you’d like most of all is to find one woman who so totally delights you and gives you everything you want, everything you need that you choose to give her 100% of your energy, focus, and passion and devote your mind/body, heart & soul to her. “And, when a woman can really BLOW ME
.Away and satisfy me like that I will be happy to give her everything you could ever want.” Sally, you can feel that (touch her) can you not.

Halbster (Commenting on whether to approach a woman who is with a guy): Generally, I agree with Rick. There are enough HB’s so that I don’t need to chase after the ones with someone else. And, even if the dude isn’t the BF, he may be an aspiring BF and I don’t want to interfere. However, there are times when I will make an exception. ie when I sense the woman is waiting to be rescued, or the guy is an asshole. Sometimes having the guy there is an advantage. It shows more google/confidence and it communicates certain other things.

Halbster (commenting on: “That is why I will only spend time with people that are interesting. There has to be something really special about this person.” This comes across as being pretty arrogant) No, this isn’t arrogant. You are paying people you choose to spend your time with a compliment. You’re also stating I’m busy and I don’t have time for people who aren’t going to make it worth my while. This is a perfect balance. It shows that you respect yourself.

Marcus Surrealism: I took a couple of one-shot seminars from Leil Lowndes on non-verbal communication and body-language. I think of her work as a mixed bag. All of it works, but » works better in most if not all cases. She specializes in corporate management and sales training, so go figure. Examples: Folks generally position their hands such that their palms face you when rapport is happening. Similarly they will show you their knuckles when rapport isn’t happening. When a woman crosses her legs at the knees, it’s not a bad or good sign. If she crosses her legs at the knees but with a small gap between the knees, however, that means she starting to get a bit hot and bothered. A little fidgeting with the foot is an even better sign. When a man approaches a group of women, one of his feet will be pointing at the one he wants most. Lowndes will give advice on how to approach a woman at a party or coffee shop or wherever, but the » methodology works much better. Lowndes says you have to make eye contact once and see if she makes eye contact again within forty-five seconds before she’ll respond favorably to your approach. Utter supplicating bullshit. I’ve done it; it doesn’t help. Lowndes also teaches that what you say isn’t nearly as important as how you say it. While this is true to some extent, she takes it to mean that you can just flap your lips and get whatever you want as long as you have the right tone of voice. She is missing a lot of potential by ignoring what exactly you want to say. Her teachings generally fit into the dating model/framework anyway. She mentioned NLP once, but she talked about it as if the most powerful techniques NLP has to teach are mirroring and eye access cues. Good stuff that I have used to round out the ss material. I think you’ll probably find her book helpful though not earth-shaking.

My Comment: I think one of the big differences between Leil’s stuff and ss is that ss is created by a man who has had all the difficulties most guys have had in getting women. Leil is an attractive woman who has found a few tricks that work well; but she can’t relate to a real difficult case, I think. I read her book and while there is some good stuff in there, there’s no way I would conclude that this book alone would guide a socially challenged, unattractive looking guy to making any woman fall in love with him. And I don’t know about you, but the examples you mention aren’t earth-shattering signals. When a woman puts her hands on your lap, winks at you and licks her lips, then you have a strong sign of invitation. I think most of the other stuff is preliminarily positive indications, but not enough to consider as guarantees of success (if you don’t do anything stupid after). Ross also teaches about the effect of how you say something and how it can be extremely important (I remember the “Mary had a little lamb” exercise, where how it is recited can create all kinds of ideas in someone’s mind). So she is not necessarily wrong about this. I think most women have love and/or sex on their minds and if you can lead their thoughts to that place in their mind (even if you do it by reciting business statements in a seductive manner) they will think those thoughts. I think this is a great technique for many guys who have a really hard time crossing that barrier from the impersonal to the personal. This is something most people have difficulty with; where you go from talking about the weather to expressing an interest in someone in a more direct manner. If you can do it without compromising your position, I know that most guys would prefer that over taking a chance of being rejected. I don’t think in those terms anymore, but I remember how I used to feel.

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