Someone who I would have liked to have at least met once uses this technique when he sees a woman he’s interested in with another man. I assume that the body language between this woman and the man she is with do not necessarily indicate that they are a couple, but I guess that is not required. He goes up to the guy, puts his hand on his shoulder, and says, “You know, I just had to come up and tell you that you have the most beautiful wife, you are one lucky guy”. If the woman is not with this guy, she may go “We’re not married” or some variation (hopefully one which goes further and tells you that she is not involved with this guy). From there, there is the possibility to get her number as she makes her availability known.
I think this is just a great little technique, but not one I have had the occasion to try out.
Letters to the Editor: The following are my selection of the comments on the posting on Max from those of you who wrote:
1) Maxin: Modeling Natural SS’ers can be an area where we can gain tremendous benefit. I’m very interested in the “Lay down the rules” part and exactly what and HOW Max says what he says, for this is the area where you have the greatest opportunity to embed the proper conditions to have the relationship you want. I was talking to “The Mack Daddy” in Cancun and he told me that he used to sit women down and one of the first things he’d tell them is “don’t fall in love with me” (negation) ” ‘Cause I see other women, and I’m not interested in being with only one woman right now” indicating the possibility that perhaps sometime in the future that would be a possibility. Of course the women he went out with would fall in love with him and pine away in hopes that he would chose them for this long term possibility.
Let me know what else you get from Max, looks like persistence and numbers are a major part of his strategy, that’s an area where good looking guys don’t get as much practice, because things come easier for them.
My comments: I have heard that “don’t fall in love with me” line before but I find that the really hard part is knowing which women to use this on and which ones not to. Using this on the wrong woman will immediately terminate poontang possibilities (I know, cause it happened to me). Max counts on numbers and feels it is all a numbers game. But it’s not only numbers — when he has an opening, he knows how to move in for the kill. He feels that most intelligent, very attractive women will want nothing to do with him, but he still tries and once in awhile he succeeds with one. He does a lot of women that I wouldn’t look at though. Perhaps I should — Major Mark says to talk to all women. I think it also keeps your skills sharp. I have a problem in that I am just very fussy about who I will have sex with.
2) Paul: I think, from reading all of what you wrote, that his simple “formula” for success is to stand up for himself, state exactly what he is looking for in life, not give a care, and work the numbers. I’m going to keep that lesson in mind. I’d like to read an interview with Max.
My comments: Basically you have it right but nothing is black and white with women (at least, that’s been my experience). What works with one, doesn’t necessarily work with another.
Max has a good little repertoire that he uses and he has been successful sometimes that are quite surprising. Other times he has a real problem but he is relentless in that he just keeps going! I will probably do a few interviews soon (wait till you read about some of the others I know).
3) Jason: Sounds your friend Max is a fun guy to have around! I know of a guy through a friend of mine who has a very similar way about him. The natural seducers are very good to learn from. Imagine being able to master the attitude of a super-successful natural seducer with that of the skill of a super-successful speed seducer.?.?. That could make for a very powerful combination. I have really been concentrating (especially during and since Cancun) on controlling my state in such a way that I now (for the most part) am able to talk to any woman in the same cool casual way that I would talk to a friend. No nervousness…no lack of cool. Now what I have noticed and what has worked extremely well is something that I started using in Cancun. (Me and another brother went out every night and we approached probably 80-100+ women over the week period.) I would just keep my state totally relaxed and cool, and I would just casually say “Hey where are you from?” Now obviously if they weren’t fully Latino or Mexican looking they were probably from somewhere else traveling just like I obviously was (I’m a full-blown white boy). And because it was said in such a casual `hey I’m just being a nice friendly person’ kinda way it worked almost 100% of the time to start many conversations. Anyway, by combining a totally calm casual `hey I’m just a cool, easy going, friendly guy’ way of coming across, along with asking a totally innocent, nice, friendly type of `hey there’s no reason to trip out on anything here, I’m an ok guy’ kind of question, it gets the conversation started very well.
Now I’ve been thinking of some similar question/s that I can use to start conversations with women back here at home. One of these that I have thought of is “hey, don’t you live over by me?”. Which would obviously end up telling me where they really DO live. I’m still trying to think of other super innocent `non-pick-up’ style conversation starters. See here’s my idea on it….hey if I can get in and get cool with them in as a real person just being cool to another person, then here’s no reason for them to not stop and talk to me. At least for long enough for them to find out if I’m as cool of a guy as I seem, and for me to find out if she is what I want, then BOOM I’m in there!
What kind of questions can we come up with that are very much like hey it’s alright for you to be cool and let your defenses down for me…after all it’s not like I’m some guy trying to pick you up or anything???
Out of all the women a friend of mine and I approached, we did end up hooking up with a few for other dates on later nights, but didn’t close the deal on any of those ones. On every one of them I did my “Where are you from approach” in an innocent way. Now here’s the interesting thought I just had….on the one that I did end up closing on I altered it a little (not on purpose it just came out) and said “Hey I couldn’t resist coming up and meeting you and finding out where you’re from?” So the interesting part was the presup that I wanted to meet her in a pick her up kind of way rather than innocently asking as just another fellow traveler. Isn’t that interesting? My intuition is still telling me the innocent approach is best. And I did end up kissing and getting numbers from some of the others so I’ll go as far as saying if it was handled right some of the others were closable as well. I’ve lately been having multiple women (not at the same time) at my place or alone with them at another place (in a closable environment) and been heavily making out and neck sucking but having them say they should go or saying I should go now. So we need to also focus on sexual accelerators. Any insight on what Ray does to close deals? For the most part I’m ok with initial pick-ups and the middle parts of the seduction but the closing still needs some work. I’m thinking I’ve had every one of these women in a closable mode but I there’s just one thing missing from them surrendering. They all have been right up to the edge, but I’ve let them slip away.
My comments: I have mentioned before elsewhere my favourite tool “You look exactly like… someone I’d like to meet!”. The way I do the first part is so politically correct that it is always well received. Just as what you said in the context of being in a vacation resort is perfectly acceptable, natural and normal. Why be nervous about it? The reality is, all you are really doing is speaking to someone. It shouldn’t be the big event that it has been for me or still is for most guys. Feeling safe with someone is a key to many women. Notice how, if you use the phone lines, they can open up be very intimate with a total stranger because they feel safe at their end of the telephone with you at a distance. Yet the same woman, if you met her in person, may be receptive but in a totally different way. Defenses are up, even though she sees you right in front of her. Does this make any sense? But your friendly approach is an obvious but critical element to making them feel relaxed and at ease. We all have these negative self images (in varying degrees) that need to be overcome and blasted away. The very fact that you would need to think that they have no reason to not stop and talk to you means that the thought has at least crossed your mind. I think it would be abnormal for you not to have had some negative self talk that needs to be overcome. I still have certain areas that I need to change (eg. why shouldn’t that hot HB who is a law student and comes from a good family be interested in a threesome? I know intellectually that this doesn’t make sense but I have a hard time working that into my conversations with these type of babes). Dr Ray likes to start up with innocent comments and move in for the kill afterwards. For me, however, if I am not direct I always find that I crash and burn. That’s one of the things I like so much about my line; I start off with an innocent comment but my intentions become very clear right away and it is done with humour. Ray’s innocent openers almost always have to do with what is happening at the moment, but it could be as simple as “Nice weather?” or “Are you from out of town?” etc. Really innocuous little comments. And it seems that most of the time they start talking with him and he’s off. You are experiencing what I usually experience; that is, when your intentions were clear your result was clear. It doesn’t hold for a lot of other guys, so I think it all depends on the individual.
When it comes to closing, one thing that always strikes me and which I have no answer for yet (other than to just go for it no matter what, which I am still reluctant to do when I am in the situation) is that you never know what their reaction is going to be until you actually take action. How many women have we missed out on by assuming the wrong things and not making that move? Plenty, is my answer.
When it comes to closing the deal, for me this is a major problem. I have an idea about this situation which I would like comments on. That is, when she starts to hesitate, take your hand off her, etc., you completely back off. You pull away and (this hasn’t been refined yet, but you will get the idea) say, “You know, I am too old to play teenager games. I prefer to be with someone who is ready to act like an adult and not get me all worked up and then put the brakes.” I know that backing off is the right thing to do. It’s just hard to do when you are in the clench and you figure if you keep it up she’s got to get so worked up that sooner or later she’ll give in. But I think that doesn’t usually work (at least it usually doesn’t work for me lately — maybe I’m getting old).
One thing I have learned and it is also a hard one to put into action, is that sometimes you can have what you want just by asking for it. For example, you meet someone in while on vacation on an island and after talking for awhile you just suggest you go back to your room with them. From what I understand, this works extremely well! You just have to ask at the appropriate time. I am embarrassed to tell you how many times I can think of that if I had only done this I would have closed deals that I let slip away…
4) Bill: I had been walked on before. The last time the girl was not sincere, and only wanted to get from me as much a possible. Talk about major impetus to learn and change. Call them on their shit asap. It is a woman’s nature to try and usurp the man. Constant vigilance is required. I am practicing this more at this time. It does seem that it is much easier to do when you really don’t give a shit.
If you want more information on altered states to help you on this try Roy Masters teachings. If you live in the L A area 870 on the AM dial 8:30 to 9:30 AM. After I got screwed I started listing to him. He described everything that this girl was doing to me on his radio program and how people like this do it. His view is that man is the leader. I know that women say they want equality. But a man who leads gets what he wants.
His classic tape is the observation meditation exercise. Which is an altered state, helping you to see the world form a more objective third person point of view. Have you ever watched a boxing match. This guy is in there fighting, he is living that moment. Ding!! He goes back to his corner, his trainer then proceeds to tell him everything that is going on in the ring. What he is doing, what his opponent is doing, how best to handle that situation. This tape also says to speak up immediately, otherwise the moment is lost.
One of his books is “Hypnosis of Life” in which he claims that we are all walking around hypnotized by the pressures of life. I ordered this book just before I got the basic SS course. For his tapes and books call, The Foundation of Human Understanding 800-877-3227
5) Michael: You might find Bandler’s book Time for a Change one of the best books you’ve ever read. In fact, as far as seduction goes I’ve found that Persuasion Engineering is great and it costs less than $30 in hardcover via Amazon.com. Making an ecology check is making sure that you keep from contradicting yourself. Just a way to take care that you use the magic and the magic DOESN’T use you.
6) Leon: Max is right in his approach, Be up front or women will walk all over you.
7) Generaly: I keep thinking that Sargy, and seduction skills in general are just tools. They can be used or abused to produce a variety of results. I tend to think that we always get what we want, but we may not own up to what it is that we really want. For a variety of reasons, I think that we might tend toward isolation. We seem to get along quite well without deep social connections, on the other hand, I think that we really “need” them to be happy. I am talking about the kind of connections (and friends) that will be safe for us to be the kind of screw-up human beings that we might be at times. The kind of friends (and lovers) that allow us to have a base to attack the sometimes harsh world out there.
I have started to realize that I really don’t need very many skills to get laid on a regular basis. As a matter of fact, when I had my most wild period (seven girlfriends) was when I was a real dumbass, seduction-wise. And, I actually got laid less when I started to study Sargy.
My point? I read that Max is the kind of person who is able to give love and respond to love in a constructive manner. Maybe a better metaphor would be that Sargy and seduction skills are like learning how to shoot a gun really well. But what are we shooting at? Human relationships involve intangibles that are real but invisible. We can’t even see what we are shooting at, and may even have had trouble putting it into words.
We might evaluate a persons “success or failure” using a goal that they don’t really have. I read that you tried to give us a look inside Max, but can we really see inside of his heart?
I would like to introduce another “seduction skill” that might appear to be a personal preference, but my warped brain thinks is common to all. And that is: “The skill of giving love and responding to love constructively.”
My Comments: If we are not getting what we think we want, it may be because we really, truly don’t want what we think we want. On the other hand, maybe we don’t get what we want because we have limiting beliefs…which is what I think still plagues me despite a lot of changes that have gone on. Given time and more work, I believe that I will break through, though.
People are “screw-up human beings” at times but these times diminish over the years if you get your head on straight (or more or less straight) and decide for yourself what is in your best interest. I can tell you I have changed radically just in the last year since I started working with SS a lot.
I have a similar experience pre-ss. I was doing very well before I met my last serious girlfriend 5 years ago; I was involved with her for 2 years and I am still friends with her today. But I have never been the same in terms of getting laid like I was before I met her. She just got me very much off track. Today I am much more assertive and able to start up with women ten times better than I ever was (I am that crazy one who approaches women EVERYWHERE and almost constantly) but my success ratio is poor. If I am to be totally honest with myself, I think part of it is because I have remained friends with her and I know that she would still get back together with me. I think this holds me back.
Max is someone who has struggled with feeling worthy all his life. He is intelligent but not really educated and has limited polish. Really sophisticated women will usually have nothing to do with him (although there are exceptions). When he hooks up with one he really likes, I think he overdoes it and smothers them. The 6’3″ model he is seeing is now living with him effectively (it’s been three weeks they know each other). I would be very happy for him if it worked out, but the pattern keeps repeating itself. Also, the fact that he could still call the phone lines when he is bored and go screw other women (even though he is “involved”) points to an inability to be truly with one woman.
As far as isolation goes, I think that one of the likely characteristics that guys interested in SS have in common is that a part of our psyches must be to be loners. We want to get laid but probably would prefer to avoid the baggage that usually comes with that. I know I do. Your theme here is probably in tune with the underlying messages that Major Mark and Ross have in mind; and that is, that once you get the getting laid out of your system you may want to “build a better girlfriend” by building a better you to begin with.
8) J’: I think there’s a fine line between not making excuses for your desires as a man, and seeming too much like all you want is some quick sex and never talk to her again.
My comments: The truth of the matter is that if you can key into the passionate side of a woman and reframe the sexual nature, they would be more than happy to only want you for sex. You just need to appeal to them in a way that doesn’t convey that you think of them as being sluts and avoids the concept of this being a one night stand. Many women will tell you that they aren’t necessarily looking for something serious but don’t want a one night stand either. So what’s left? Logically, you should then be able to have a casual, on-going sexual relationship, right? Well, this is really what they want. No pressure from something too serious over their heads, lots of passion (acceptable, respectable sex), and getting to know someone. So why do we have any problems getting laid?
9) Halbster: Awesome. This is one of the most useful messages I’ve gotten in a while. I’m gonna use some of his stuff. “I’m not 16 and don’t work at McDonald’s…” If we go out you pay. etc. Have you told him about SS? He sounds like he’d be great on the list. What is the book he wrote? I’ve seen some people, notably two very successful (financially) guys use “Marry me lines.” I’ve had mostly bad results with the marry me line.
My comments: Max was in Miami at the time of the seminar when I was there (I saw him before the seminar started) and I begged (really supplicated) to get him to go but he wouldn’t. Didn’t want to pay about $1000 Canadian for a weekend (actually I think he would have, except that since his father died he would have to have explained such a large expenditure to his mother and didn’t want to have to deal with that – he’d kill me if he knew I told anyone that, so that will be our little secret).
The book Max wrote is called “The Road to Success”. He uses it mostly to impress women right now, but also is thinking about ways to market it. The book is Max doing Tony Robbins, and I don’t think you will find anything extraordinary there. His insights about women are more from his own experiences and he thinks everyone knows what he knows.
I personally haven’t used the marry me line – I am too afraid of the long term ramifications!
10) Rob: This is absolutely brilliant stuff! This is what we need more of, real world, real life observations of what works and what doesn’t work.
11) Ross: Ha ha. I had a roommate like that: Mike H…same guy..same personality..same success with women..same self-destructive psychosis…
I think the appeal is, when they are “up”, they are having so much fun that their spirit of adventure is infectious..it puts folks in that altered state of being ready to try anything..of being willing to DO wild stuff they would never do..it brings out the adventurous (and gullible) kid in people…that’s the appeal in the nutshell..that THESE folks, like Claude or Mike, in my experience, GO FIRST!
Unfortunately, the state also contains NO genuine compassion, empathy or interest in other people..so it’s like a huge sugar rush..with the resultant crash later on… They are missing a full half of a functioning personality..and ultimately come to a bad end as a result.
The lesson: learn to create in YOURSELF that carefree, ready for anything state..but keep humming in the background, the compassion and caring for others….and a willingness to walk away and call folks on their bullshit..you’ll attract like a magnet WITHOUT the bad consequences of a Mike, or a Claude or some other folks I’ve known who shall go completely unnamed…
12) Bill: This stuff reads like fiction. Could it really be true?
The one thing I do know is that as he didn’t give a shit. Others gave him incredible power over themselves. I go back into my memory in order to improve myself and learn about people. One thing I learned is that often times a person will want to be with someone for whatever reason. This part falls under what I call the limited option ploy. As Claude was so ready to walk away these women held a limited option. That being what can I do to get him. Never asking do I even want him. I know I’ve been there with the girls I was interested in.
Another powerful neurotic link is that such a person as Claude and the other assholes in the world is that they act in a way which presupposes that you are treating them badly. Most people respond by trying to make up for him feeling bad by what they did. Even though they did nothing wrong. Some people actually feel that they are bad or wrong when they are not. So they are driven to make up for that. I’ve been there. Of course I know better now. And I am thinking of how to use this knowledge to get women. Sometimes when talking to them if they say something slight I will turn and step away from them. This helps to shift the balance of power. If you have any more insight on this let me know.
My Comments: I wrote about stuff that I saw personally. I was really an AFC when this happened (about 20 years ago) and was constantly amazed by the guy. I saw him approach a really gorgeous young girl (probably 19 or 20) on the street and within 5 seconds invite her back to his place and she was ready to go. He had a sixth sense of what to do with whom that was incredible. I could never figure out how he did this.
13) Tom: First of all my thoughts are that this sounds like something that you created for a movie script or a book. Some of the stunts this guy pulls like stepping between two people at a club and cutting the guy off would more than likely get him clobbered. I would be pretty ticked off. Taking two women home with him at least once a month are pretty good odds considering the majority of men don’t score like that unless you’re Antonio Banderas or Tom Cruise. Then again I’ve had similar experiences like that where a guy I used to hang out with was a schmoozer ….model type pretty boy somewhat like a Brad Pitt look and he was a user ….. don’t mean a drug addict although he used to be. He would get drunk and I would watch him sometimes he’d get up kinda close to her in an intimate way and look into their eyes then speak real softly in their ear telling them all kinds off bullshit none of which I heard but I knew he was full of it. This guy rented some chick’s garage and didn’t have a real job plus his credit was shot to hell ….almost sounds like this ex-friend of yours. Most of the time he got laid from what I saw.
14) Maxin: One of the things that might be very useful, is to look back in time at the situations you were in with Claude, as if you were there right now, and looking through the eyes you have today and listening through the SS trained ears of today, to see what pieces of useful information you can glean from those memories. Kinda like that DHE exercise Ross posted about last month, looking through a set of lenses, lenses designed to allow you to see things differently, do some breath work, relaxation, meditation, and go back in time to when you were there, with the knowledge you have now and see what new information you might be able to get. You did that quite well with the Story about Claude calling the girl and telling her about his new car, and leading her visually, but I think in other areas, there might be some more to the story that you could infer – and that’s what I think might be very useful, your opinions of how and why what he did worked, maybe looking at it this way will open you up to some more info.
My Comments: Since I hung around with Claude for about 4 years, I know there’s a lot more I could comment on. I do need to dust off the cobwebs and remember more of his strategies with women, because they worked.
15) Jerome: It’s sad to hear that your friendship broke up because of his stealing… I don’t know why is it that most women usually like this kind of guy, ones who steal, cheat, are never serious… Sometimes, I wonder, what happens first, the appeal or the act? Should we copy them and steal, cheat and never be serious in order to get such results with women? Or is it that if we become appealing to women, we tend to steal, cheat and never be serious?
My Comments: I think that our friendship broke up because I had made the decision to stop being friends with him. He was very persistent and kept calling me (and running into me as he knew where I would be some of the time) and apologizing and wanting to return to what was. But I was actually a basket case from what this put me through then and couldn’t deal with him on any level. This emotional turmoil was me changing, growing and maturing and he was largely the cause.
Even when I was with him and saw him do evil, I was thinking to myself to take the good from what he was doing. I don’t think the stealing, cheating and not being serious are critical elements to the successful elements of his behaviour, only I had never seen this before anywhere. It seems that some elements of being a scoundrel include naturally learning to be a good seducer. If he didn’t have the character flaws he had, he may not have found the behaviours with women that he had.