This week we have comments from Kevin and Sam, two readers of Cliff’s List and my responses to them.  Feel free to disagree, or offer some of your own insights.  Just email me and I’ll take it from there.

Kevin: In thinking – I do not agree with your last note

Actually I see women pretty much say as they are. I know so many women that say they want a certain guy and they hold out for that guy – and many are still single due to that…look at online profiles alone and women in metro areas – these women will wait until the get what they want. This is not the woman of yesteryear…

Women today do not “need” men as they did in the past – many make more money and have very good lives and kudos to that…

I have a “10” friend (just stunning 38 year old, educated, great corporate career and well traveled) – she travels all over the world and is trying to find a boyfriend that is tall, dark, handsome and rich. She just went to Spain and Italy to meet a guy but he turned out poorer than she wanted. She came back and will continue to look until she finds him. And I have three other female friends who are very similar.

So if women today women say they want a 6 foot guy or wealthier guy – they will hold out until they find one. Financially they can – this is not the 1950’s. It might deviate a little but they are set for it…the community gets this really wrong from what I have witnessed….

Clifford: I would say that you have to know when to take them at face value and when not to.  Definitely you cannot always listen to what they say – you will absolutely make mistakes with them that way.  Women test men all the time – and knowing how to work past their defenses is in their best interest because they will often actually thank you for moving things forward.

And, trust me, you cannot let them tell you what they want.  I know for a fact this is just not the right thing to do.  My father pursued my mother for 5 years before they got married, and my brother was told by his wife at one point after they had dated for awhile that he wasn’t her type and that he should go out with other women.  A woman I know last week told me she was madly in love with this new guy she met, and then started telling me how she felt he wasn’t her type and she resisted and resisted but he was persistent and now she’s the happiest she has ever been (her words). 

Of course you have to know how to be persistent or you will be annoying, a pest, or a stalker.  It’s not an easy situation, but I am convinced that you cannot automatically just accept what a woman says to you at face value.

Sam: Yep. All most girls care about is fame, looks and wealth. it’s so shallow as if a famous man is better then anyone else. He’s not. He’s human with feelings just like the rest of us.

All this higher value and social proof stuff is a whole load of shallow bs.

An ex-friend of mine owes me money and I don’t like him. If he all of a sudden becomes famous, it won’t make any difference.

It’s just people, especially girls, just being shallow and not nice when they go for famous people.

Girls aren’t interested in personality.  I’ve got a great one but because I’m very overweight, ugly, poor and not famous, girls don’t want to know

Looks are also everything. I’m sure you want model looking girls and not ugly fat girls.

Clifford: I think your comments are a little one sided.  For example, you talk about women being shallow but, while it is clear you want good looking women you describe yourself in unattractive terms and say women aren’t interested in personality.  I would think that when the shoe is on the other foot, you should logically be also interested in women who aren’t attractive and go for the ones with good personalities.

I think the advice that has appeared here would make a difference for you.  First thing would be to work on your weight – you probably wouldn’t be interested in a woman as overweight as you describe yourself, so you should consider offering the same appealing size that you want back to them.  It’s not really that hard to lose weight – it’s usually the first 2-3 weeks of getting used to a diet that are the hardest.  Then once you are on the road, weight falls off easily over time (usually if what you are doing makes you lose more than 2 lbs a week, it doesn’t stay off).

In terms of being ugly, I really believe that has to do with presentation.  Well groomed, well dressed (and that does not have to be expensive at all), and with a positive attitude will take a guy very far.

I am all about being practical – you have to make the most of what you have and not care about what is going on with others. That does not give you any results – their success doesn’t help you (other than to try and learn from them, but here we’re talking only about the superficial side of things).  

Sam wrote in with some comments that started with him telling me that his being overweight “is a medical thing for the most part.”  My response to him was “If the weight bothers you, you are well advised to look into what can be done about it whether it is a medical thing or not.  If you can do something about it, you should.  If you can’t, then you need to consider an alternative approach so that you come to a place where the weight doesn’t bother you or get in the way of your enjoying your life.”

He went on to say the following:

Girls have it easy and don’t have to pay to do bootcamps or even approach. We have to and for far less success. So we are entitled to go for looks a bit more.

Everything that guy sent in (about looks) was correct (the one with all the random posts). I know good looking guys with no personality who get much more sex than average guys with great personalities and have done bootcamps with the likes of Pickup 101 and Love Systems. I’ve been out with both lots of times and seen it all.

Survival value = good for long term relationships where personality is important.

Replication value i.e genetic good looks = getting easy sex.  One night stands, etc, don’t really need much survival value if at all if its just sex.

Clifford: Women will tell you the opposite.  Other than a few women who have the nerve, they have to sit back and wait for guys to approach them.  And the ones they want very rarely approach them.  And they think if you don’t approach them that you aren’t attracted to them and they beat themselves up about what’s wrong with them.  It’s well known that a great percentage of women suffer from low self esteem – maybe it’s because of unrealistic expectations, but it’s something that affects a lot of the really good looking ones and not only the unattractive ones.

For sure there are women who are as shallow as you describe – probably the ultimate take away from this discussion is that everyone is different and you really shouldn’t assume things because you are as likely to be wrong as you are to be right.

I can’t help but think about how so many women will get involved with douchebags, bums, unemployed losers, etc. so you can see that “fame, looks and wealth” does not always rule what they look for.  Everyone’s heard stories about all the love letters some criminals get while in prison.

One thing everyone seems to agree on is that women find confidence to be probably the most appealing quality a man can have.  So when a guy is showing higher value and social proof, these are off shoots of confidence and understandable about why they attract women.

As for yourself, I haven’t met you but describing yourself as “very overweight, ugly, poor and not famous” suggests that however “great” your personality is, you have these underlying negative beliefs about yourself and this can’t come across as confident.  There are many overweight guys who are very confident and appear attractive (Cee Lo Green, Gerard Depardieu, Seth Rogen, John Goodman, etc.) because of their attitude. 

And it’s also notably been said that for every $1 men spend on self help, women spend $7.  So it’s not so easy for women as it may seem.

Sam: Another problem i have is that I’m with my parents and don’t want that fact to have any effect at all of me getting girls.but a lot of PUA instructors, etc. all seem to have the following and seem to assume that all their students have this too.

1. They have their own big house or apartment in the middle of a big city or town and don’t live with their parents. So the logistics are always perfect for them

2.  They earn a lot of money from men who pay a lot of money to them for training (which helps them to afford number 1)

3. They all seem to have a huge social circle of friends and more importantly other PUA people who may well teach them very rare and underground material that normal students don’t get taught.

4. They are NOT tied down to a boring job where you can only have around 5 weeks holiday/vacation a year.  In fact, especially the ceo’s –  they don’t have a job where they have to be in a specific location and between two specific times. So they are kind of always on holiday.

Take Richard Gambler as a example. He’s got tons of money and spends must of his time just travelling around.  People like him can just go to New York for two months and then go to LA, just like that.  They can earn money as they travel.

And in all their newsletters, they always mention things like that as if they are bragging, etc.

But what are people meant to do if they haven’t got any of the above four things?

Clifford: One thing that happened to me that really stuck in my mind was when I was walking downtown a couple of years ago.  All the specifics really aren’t important, but basically the guys I was with and I were approached by a guy living on the streets asking for money.  This guy was particularly upbeat and had an attitude, and started picking on one of the guys I was with and he says “Hey, I’m homeless and I bet I get more pussy than you!”   And you know what?  I could believe him from the way he carried himself.

Another thing that I try to focus on is that you really need to pay attention to what works for you and not care about what happens to others.  There has been a lot of talk about certain coaches and how successful they actually are with women – I think that’s most irrelevant.  If someone helps you to get results, that’s what matters.  When anyone else has success, that’s great for him but it really doesn’t affect you.  So while you point out about the lifestyles of PUA instructors, you might as well compare yourself to Hugh Hefner or Richard Branson – what someone else has doesn’t really affect you (other than to hopefully motivate you to improve) and you need to focus on doing the best you can with what you have.  In your case, for example, you may want to develop an expertise in going to her place.  But I lived at home until I was 22 and brought many women  over – it’s really a lot dependent on your attitude.  

In terms of having a large social circle, one of the best things you can do is start to create small events and invite people to attend.  These don’t have to cost anything – for example you can just say you and some friends are meeting at a bar, club or restaurant.  I know a guy who has built up a large group of friends that he invites to a variety of things and now 30-40 people minimum show up to everything he hosts, and usually a lot more than that.  He is also an overweight guy who describes himself as stuck in the friendzone but he has a huge crowd that all come out to his events.  Once you start doing this on a regular basis, it snowballs and you meet a lot of people and can easily make some good friends.

Like I said, I think it’s all about doing the best you can with what you have.  There’s really no point in feeling sorry for yourself that you aren’t wealthy or don’t have this or that – you should be working to try and change your situation if you aren’t happy with what it is, but work with what is there.

The above should put some thoughts in your mind and let’s hear your opinions and suggestions.

Best,

Clifford


Clifford
Clifford

I have been fortunate enough to have been able to present a lot of great material in the cliff’s list newsletters and now on the website that have made a significant difference in many guy’s lives.

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