Don’t care what women think ? Maybe you’re doing it wrong …
Ross Jeffries

(In Response to Guru Master: Guru master: I remember DavidX shouting, over and over, “Who cares what they think ?!” His frame is that an attractive man just does what he wants when he wants. “It’s my way or the highway.” It made sense to me, but it took awhile for it to really click. I mean, how the fuck do you just stop caring about a woman’s thoughts, behaviors, and feelings ? I knew the concept was sound, and for a while I “convinced myself” that I didn’t give a fuck, etc.) 

Actually, from what I can read below, while you may not “care” in the sense of having an emotional response to what they think, you obviously do understandhow they think, in that you correctly identify their emotional responses, and demonstrate to these young ladies that you understand what they are really feeling (fear, insecurity).

In effect, you are establishing your authority in their world by showing you docare how they think (at least to them). These ladies don’t feel abused; they feelunderstood, and rightly so.

A huge part of your effectiveness here is showing them that you do understand.

I really think DavidX does a disservice by mis-stating what he really means (or at least what I think he means, Cliff, jump in here) which is don’t let what they thinkset the frame or the lead. Understand how they think, but stay in the lead.

Cliff’s Comment: Yes, that’s probably a good way to put it, but I have seen him completely ignore what they say (to the point of talking to me while he is on the phone with one, then every now and then putting the phone back to his ear and going “Uh huh” and then putting it away again). It also goes deeper, in that he will keep them around as long as he wants them, rather than be concerned (as many of us might be) that he was wasting her time.

Guru Master: To me, now that I’ve crossed over to the dark side completely, it means that you know beyond the shadow of doubt that you can give women exactly what they want and then some. You “stop caring” because you know how to pass each and every one of her tests, give her the emotional / sexual experience that she craves, and make her feel safe enough to be a kid again.

Yes, but you pass the test by showing you understand what they are up to, which requires some intelligence.

Guru Master: One of the major pieces of my game has to do with making them cry. Every woman. I think the winning frame that I’ve gotten this summer, the frame that has changed my life like nothing else, is that I know that women love me. Everything they do, including telling me to go away, just means they love me. I got the C&F line “You love me” from DYD, but to me, it’s not just a cute line. I treat them exactly as I would treat a woman who is already smitten with me. To me, bratty behavior = fear (of rejection, getting hurt, etc.) and all other behavior = love.

Stop right there. The fact that you sat down and came up with this shows you docare how they think, if not what they are thinking. You may not care if they are thinking / evaluating you, but you do care how they think.

And you are right; 9 times out of 10, the bratty behavior is really about fear and insecurity. You are accurately pacing their world and their reality, and nutty as it may seem to guys looking in from the outside.

Guru Master: I remember from psychology that if you want someone to be trustworthy, you treat them as if you trust them. It’s the same concept, really. Whenever they act bratty, I treat them like, “You poor thing, you have so much fear in you.” I’ll even say that. At one point I looked at HB18 and told her, “You know that you’re falling in love with me, right ? Yeah, you do, and you know I’m the one now, don’t you ? Isn’t it interesting how the more you try to cut yourself off from feeling this way, because you’re scared, the more you try to stop yourself from this, the more you want me, don’t you ?” Guys, fucking learn hypnosis. Like actually take the time to learn it until it becomes second-nature.

I’ve been teaching and preaching “the more the more” stuff for years.

As I see it, you establish you are trustworthy by showing you understand their real motivations. Once they trust you are an authority on where they are at, they trust you are an authority on where they ought to go (however kinky that may get).

And the fact that you don’t respond in typical ways to their auto-pilot insecure crap puts them on hold—it creates a pattern interrupt and makes them suggestible.

So, from an SS standpoint, understanding the bratty behavior and voicing your understanding (all the while from a “I really don’t care if I get you or not”) is a triple threat.

I think there is far more understanding and intellect to what you are doing than most people would see. It is far from a dumb-guy cocky / funny frame (although the cocky funny has a role to it).

Guru Master: I tell them how they’re feeling because, in case you haven’t noticed, most of the time they don’t even know, all they know is that they are emotional.

Again, that is a strong and accurate understanding. You can’t say you don’t care how they think or feel, because you do, from an understanding perspective that enables you to use what you know.

You just don’t “care” in the conventional sense of an AFC who is constantly monitoring the situation to see if she is pleased, if he is liked, etc.

I want to keep making this point because so many guys are going to misread your post as being about just acting like you are the bomb and they are shit and that isnot what you really are doing. You are showing deep level understanding of how they think and feel. I am very concerned that guys will think the key to getting women is by being a roughshod dumb ass and that is not what you are advocating at all. Your approach is actually quite intelligent and cagey.

Guru Master: Remember “tag questions” from NLP ? My late game is filled with those. I swear I’m going to have to just record myself, because it’s so hard to explain what I’m doing. Let’s talk about sex. Sex is easy, sex is fun, but I found out from girls that guys barely say a word to the girl while they’re fucking them. All they do is grunt and moan. My girls [em]always cum because I learned to lead them with my voice. The fact that I can talk sexually during most of the sex gives them something that apparently 99% of guys can’t do. I guide them through various sexual adventures with my voice, and bathe them in good tonality. I tell them to cum, and they do. A money line I use that really makes them wet is, “In a moment, I’m going to grab you, and I’m going to slide my big, hard c*ck … deep deep inside you, until you feel more deeply fucked … than you’ve ever felt before.”[/em]

You are telling them how to process what is going to happen … again, one of my key rules. There is real intelligence here, people. If you didn’t care how they thought and processed, you wouldn’t be using this stuff. Again, you just aren’t worried if they like you are not, and are instead focused on the processes that resonate with them and move them.

Guru master: Oh, for handling girls who take the C&F too seriously in set, or if they take it too far themselves and make [em]me feel uncomfortable, I just comment on how, “That was weird” and say something like, “Let’s drop the c*cky-funny testing-each-other-to-see-if-we-can-take-it shit and switch to genuine-mode for a while. It’s been fun, but now it’s time to cool off and be genuine with each other.” Something like that. I say it very matter-of-fact.[/em]

You are pacing what is really going on and revealing the truth of it, setting authority in their world.

Guru Master: I accept any and all responses girls give me, just like a good hypnotist. I looked at her and said, “It’s nice to see you. Obviously you don’t feel like talking right now, so it’s probably best that you don’t. You won’t have anything nice to say anyhow (playfully).”

Pacing her reality. There is intelligence here. You aren’t just ignoring it. You are using it. Please get the intelligence here. I wince when I hear guys quoting David X. It’s a formula for falsely thinking you have to be an idiot and just do whatever.

Commenting on Mark B: My training partner is half black half white. His mother is Polish and his father was from Ghana. He is 6’4″ in great shape with a six pack and a nicely defined physique.

So fucking what ? Since most guys can never and will never look this way, what is the point of focusing on it ?

Life is about doing what you can with what you have, realistically assessing how much of what is missing can be added back in, and enjoying the game of dealing with what is left.

Beyond a certain point, most guys can’t improve their looks, so are they going to piss and moan about it and ignore other things that might even the balance ?

Of course some (but not all) women are totally into a guy’s looks. More (but not all) are into it, but it can be gotten around. Some (but not all) don’t care at all.

My comment on your thinking, Mark, is that it seems to be all or nothing. You ought to check out Robert Anton Wilson’s book “Prometheus Rising.” He talks about the term “sombunall” which is short for “some, but not all.” It helps to avoid massive generalizations which lead to cloudy thinking.

And it also seems to me your are very body obsessed; sort of a reverse dysmorphia with a little bit of narcissism. Doesn’t seem like a healthy pre-occupation to me.


Mark B.:

Cliff’s Comment: I don’t think anyone has ever said that looks do not play some role. The problem here is that you are fixated on this one aspect of what attracts women and it’s a moot point. You do what you can with what you have (certainly look your best and keep improving to look better), but many guys are simply in the situation that they have to deal with the cards they have been dealt and telling them that they won’t be as successful as a good looking guy is of no real value. 

Mark B.: It’s one’s appearance, not looks. By appearance I am talking about things the guy can control … his weight, his physical shape, his skin tone, his hair cut, his clothes … everything that first conveys what sort of person he is. In the case of a good friend of mine, when he wears a light colored shirt, he gets women coming up to him at nightclubs, but when he wears his black shirt women stay away and he cannot even initiate a simple conversation. Nothing else changes other than his shirt color. Do you see what I am talking about ?

Cliff’s Comment: The reality is, and it seems clear that I have seen this much more than you have, is that there are a great number of very attractive women who can be attracted by other factors than your looks.

Mark B.: Well, where are these guys ? Why don’t they post about how they failed and how now suddenly they have more relationship choice and how they did it ?

If a woman chooses an non-appealing guy, if he is utterly offensive physically, the things that may attract her can be money, some opportunity the guy can give her, or her sense of a lack of relationship choice. But do we really want a woman who wants you for reasons other than you ? I don’t. Furthermore, what woman will admit she really wants a guy for his physical appeal as her primary reason for being with him ? Women just don’t tend to admit the extent of their attraction the way men do. Hence it’s easy to be fooled by a woman who says, “Well, he makes me laugh, etc.” Well sure, but only because she is attracted to him. Women are just as visual as men, and perhaps even more so, as they have to bear responsibility for bearing a genetically healthy offspring.

Cliff’s Comment: If you don’t have good looks, are you telling them to just look the best they can and be hopeful that some woman will like them ?

Mark B.: There is always something one can do. Often in can be as simple as a different hair cut or some weight loss or better fitting pants.

Cliff’s Comment: This is worthless advice to someone who needs to use anything else to attract because they don’t have the looks. It also goes against what is probably the “prime directive” of the PUA / seduction community, and that is to create choice for the man … we learn what we are learning so that we can be the ones choosing, not women.

Mark B.: Then the whole prime directive of the PUA / seduction community is flawed and needs to be reworked. You cannot act in isolation, failing to consider what women want and acting in disregard to what they find attractive, and expect them to flock. Without female choice and attention we are nothing. We must make ourselves as choice-worthy as possible. Women also make choices and have their own brains which we must respect.

Cliff’s Comment: Of course they will have to go along, but the idea is not to be dependent on someone else’s ability to choose.

Mark B.: The idea that one cannot be dependent on someone else’s ability to choose is flawed. It is this very belief that holds back men from looking at themselves and saying “What can I do to be better at attracting women ?” They fail to self improve in all aspects of themselves and think they are entitled to control women and have what they want. If there was a way to do that, the PUA / seduction community would cease to exist, as there would no longer be any need for it. By its own very existence, it implies that what it stands for and believes does not have any basis in fact and reality. We must offer what they are buying, otherwise we are going to get killed. Why do you think Motorola has struggled ? They stayed analog while the rest of the world went digital. If the guy keeps offering analog and thinks he will stay in business and keeps on thinking of new ways to sell, eventually he will close down. Consumers and women have too much choice these days to settle for undesirable goods.

Thinking that women should respond to you and that you are entitled to have all the women you want and have them do everything you want is the very idea that holds men back from having real success. It fails to consider that women do have choice and do make choices and we must make ourselves and what we offer as attractive and presentable as possible. Even when we look at this idea of “game,” is it not to make ourselves as attractive as possible ? Or is its purpose simply to control women because the guy doing the PUALook up this term / game deep down has nothing really to offer, has no control, and the only way to get anywhere is to try and control ? And if the PUALook up this term / game was so successful in controlling women, why do most guys here still struggle ? To me it’s like holding water … you have to gently clasp it. If you squeeze it tightly you will lose all if it. It’s the same with women: give up some control, put things in her hands, let her decide, empower her. And if she still does not make a decision in his favor, she was never interested, and no amount of control would have made any difference.

If so many guys have problems connecting, is it not obvious that perhaps trying to control women is flawed and not the way to connect ? Does it not seem more apparent that making an offering of oneself as appealing and attractive as possible would make more sense ? To me it’s far more preferable to assume you must work your ass off to get women, that it’s difficult to get them and you must be at your best … this approach has yielded me more women and more sex than thinking that I am somehow entitled to have women offer me what I want. We interact with women, we do something, they respond back and forth.

Cliff’s Comment: There’s no question that women are attracted to good looking men, but I think it is also true that men with great personalities will also attract and, in my opinion, do better when they are in control of the interaction than if they are relying only on physical attributes to bring them success.

Mark B.: You cannot just stand there, but all things being equal the guy who is a 9 will win out over the guy who is an 8, and often all it takes is the smallest change to make that one point leap.

Cliff’s Comment: Take a look at the success the local pick-up guru has been having (see above) … he rates himself only a “7.” I can start listing a lot of guys I know or know of who are not classically handsome who are very successful with women, but I don’t think that you will believe this until you see it for yourself.

Mark B.: I have never met or seem him, but I doubt women find him offensive and he has to rely only on his personality. Most men tend to rate themselves low, but I bet he appears in a way that does not turn women off, and hence they give themselves an opportunity to connect with him. Plus he seems bold by his posts, something most women love in a guy.

Cliff’s Comment: Go take a look at Sean. This guy consistently scores with hot babes because he has an extremely powerful attitude. I can start listing a few other examples (among them is David X.) who are definitely not attractive in the conventional sense and it is all their personality that is getting them success.

Mark B.: I saw the site. I don’t take it seriously … you cannot equate yourself with him. I don’t think any self-respecting woman would seriously consider dating him romantically or having sex with him unless he pays her … it’s cruel, I know, but the hard cold truth.

Cliff’s Comment: I met him and I definitely don’t agree with what you wrote. You obviously, exactly as I said, need to see it for yourself. You need to be a little more open-minded. You should listen to his DYD interview.

Mark B.: Like I said, to me the interview with him (and really with anybody) means nothing if not backed by real hard evidence. But I have come to see the real purpose of this so called seduction community. It’s about control, not about connecting, dating and sleeping with women. Obviously in the context of control, one’s appearance means nothing. How one takes care of themselves means nothing when the bottom line is control. Unfortunately, the mechanics of social interaction do not work like that. Both parties need to have a say in what happens, and both parties need to find something of value in the other to find it worthwhile to engage. And it just so happens that physical appearance does indeed play a huge role in one’s success because, in the end, sex happens as a result of physical attraction.

Each woman needs to feel motivated to engage the guy on her own, and the way to have her be highly motivated is to offer her something of value. In most cases that value is good looks, social and economic opportunity, money, or some sort of emotional fulfillment. Rarely does anyone engage in a relationship with anyone because they have a need to be forcefully controlled. And while there are elements and dynamics within a social interaction which require some form of assertive behavior, rarely if ever does the entire social interaction become about one party exercising control over the other. Inevitably, one party either backs out, or they begin a power struggle that degenerates into nothing. I have never succeeded with a woman by telling her what to do, by controlling her behavior – only by suggesting things we may do together and then letting her make up her own mind. This is where the fundamental difference lies between me and the PUA / Seduction community, but one that has yielded me consistent results. Now it’s clear.

Cliff’s Comment: I personally have seen how looks can definitely make a huge difference, and I have also seen women attracted to the conventionally unattractive … so, like I said before, unless you saw it for yourself, I don’t think you will believe it. But I have seen it and know that it is true, for whatever that is worth.

As for the issue of control, I think we are splitting hairs here. I don’t think women are “controlled” in what is usually thought of as “control.” Rather, similar to what you said, if you suggested things in a manner that they found appealing they would likely go along with it. No one can really make anyone do anything they don’t want to do (other than at gun point, I mean) and certainly we aren’t talking about any kind of psychological manipulation. But if you can build attraction, you can get results. I think one of the key things that the community is teaching is how to make yourself attractive, how to create that attraction so that you understand how it works and can access your ability to create it on a consistent basis. The thing is, you don’t believe that you can be attractive to a woman without the looks as well. Connecting is part of creating attraction. Taking care of yourself so that you present the best appearance you can is great, but, in my experience, not usually enough to score. At least not for me … I am a decent looking guy, but women don’t approach me the way they do some of the very good looking guys I know. But I do know that if I spend a little time with a woman and we have a good interaction where I do demonstrate my personality, they usually do develop an attraction.

Mark B.: You got the idea.

IN10SE (

How to have her screaming for more ! The Original IN10SE Orgasm MethodFirst of all, a few words to the conservative ones out there. Sex is natural. It’s how we got here, and the “Energy” from sexual drives have been redirected and “sublimated” and have shaped our modern day society. Now of course I’m not openly advocating casual sex …

Sex in a committed relationship can be a beautiful thing ! And of course, be responsible and safe …

Ok guys, now to the dirt !

Here it is … my own special technique that has been perfected through trial and error. This technique rocks and is the best thing I can assure you that most women will experience in their lives !

Here it is, step by step:

1) Of course the mood has to be right. She has to be ready to go physically.

2) Once you are making out with her, go down, kiss her neck, then her breasts, then her stomach, then the insides of her thighs …

3) Then go back up to her mouth, then kiss her neck again, then her stomach, then the insides of her thighs again … and you may even want to “bite” her ass cheek softly on either side … then start sucking on the insides of her thighs … closer and closer to her pussy …

Take your sweet time …

4) By this time she should literally be dripping wet. You should be able to see the milky juices flowing down.

5) Then go right in and lick right up the middle all the way to the top of her clit in one sweep. Watch her reaction …

6) Then put you fingers inside her. (2 if possible.) I will usually put the index and middle fingers of my right hand inside) and put them all the way in to touch the spot deep in the upper vaginal wall right on the upper rim of her cervix.

7) Keep your fingers straight as you reach back for that spot, then pull your fingers toward the front in a gentle, sweeping motion.

Go deep, back and forth, and do this slowly and rhythmically. Keep it steady and keep it slow at first.

Then bring your other hand to rest your palm on the top of her pubic mound and press in with your palm as if you were trying to gently touch your fingers inside her with the palm of your other hand from the outside.

9) Continue to do this rhythmically … slowly … deliberately and gently … letting her pleasure build.

10) Use your tongue on her clit so that each time you massage “up” on her mound with your palm, you are lifting and exposing her clit to your tongue.

11) Do this all slowly and deliberately and as she gets more and more aroused and closer to orgasm, you go faster and faster … building your strokes until she has the most intense orgasm of her life !

12) If she is too aroused or has multiple orgasms, you can break it up by just going to straight oral with your tongue every now and then … in long strokes with your tongue right up her slit… over and over … alternating that with sucking and short tongue strokes on her clit … then go back into the orgasm technique …

One more note on technique, just to be clear … when you bring your fingers inside forward, you are keeping upward pressure of your finger tips on the upper part of her vaginal wall. And then you go back to that spot, then bring your fingers forward keeping upward pressure on the top part of her vaginal wall …

And to this, you place the other hand’s palm on her mound from the outside, massaging inward and using your tongue to her clit, as well.

Now when you have sex with her after this, she will be so exquisitely sensitive, wet and aroused that it will also be the best sex she has ever had !


Brother Kermit:

(Reposted from the Montreal Lair MSN Group with permission of the author): 

Hops Of Wisdom by Kermit

H.O.W. to Pass Shit Tests.

Lately there has been some discussion on how to pass a woman’s tests. I am writing this to offer a perspective. What I am writing is based on my studying and experience, but is in no way complete. Feel free to offer more stuff to this thread.

Passing shit tests has to do with one thing, and one thing only: addressing the emotional need that she is communicating. (Beyond the words, beyond the literal meaning, the 3rd level of communication is the emotional need being communicated.)

There are 3 ways to pass any shit test:

1-Cocky Funny

2-Sincere vulnerability

3-Pissed off / false anger

All of these methods work to pass the tests. Here is why they work:

1-Cocky Funny: By far the most popular and most fun way to pass a shit test. It is the easiest and doesn’t have to be done in any perfect manner (like 2) or require some heavy management skills (like 3). Cocky funny addresses the emotional need by presenting a situation so outrageous that it has to be a joke. Humor is used to diffuse a situation, and you appear too cool to be concerned with her bullshit. This gives you power to lead the frame, and let her follow you into it, so that she doesn’t have to worry about it either. If you do it right, she will simply figure it is a non-issue and will allow herself whatever she needs to believe in in order to move the experience forward. The only danger is that if you do not calibrate to the girl in front of you, or if all you know is cocky funny, and you do not have any other game … you could blow yourself out of the water, and really come off as a dick. If this happens, go to sincere vulnerability, establish some rapport, or start again withpacing the reality to get back to a level of rapport, and switch to a different game mode.

2-Sincere Vulnerability. This one takes skill. It is about treading the fine line between coming from a position of strength or wussy neediness. This is where we find items like saying you’re sorry for the way she feels (which acknowledges her emotions) and saying you’re sorry for her forgiveness (which shows neediness). Do you see the difference ? Choosing your words here is so important. In this, you reveal elements of yourself that are private and secret. This causes the two of you to reach a new level of closeness, and still presents you as strong man. Other example includes talking about the special things that you really feel passionate about. (Think secret motivations.)

3-False Anger. This requires you to be able to manage her if she turns out to enjoy a good argument. The way this works is that you purposely misinterpret what she says as an insult (maybe insinuating exactly the opposite of what her words are). Then you get angry and say that she has no right to even question you about that. In your outburst, you directly address her emotional need, but acting as if it is the secondary issue of your argument. Why this works is that women simply believe that men lie all the time, and men are only nice to them to get into their pants. That is their reality. So when a guy gets angry with them, or puts them in their place (including calling them on their bullshit), she has no choice but to believeeverything he says is true. This is why many women will purposefully press your buttons. Only in anger will the words of a man be truthful (in their reality).

Here is an example and look at how each method addresses the emotional issue:

Situation: You are taking a girl to your apartment. She makes a comment to test you. The test is, “I bet you bring a lot of girls here.” The emotional need (for the purposes of this example only) is that she wants to feel that she is special to you, and that she isn’t just another notch in your belt.

Cocky Funny response: “Yes actually, next week I am installing a revolving door, this way I can service all the women with my place, even when I am not home.”

(So outrageous a story, it has to be false … but using humor diffuses the situation, and since you don’t make an issue of it, she doesn’t have to, either. You lead the frame, she follows, and she gets to think whatever she wants to make herself feel better.)

Vulnerable sincere: “Whenever I get the chance. I love bringing people home and giving them the chance to look into my soul through the way I really live.” Showing you have some depth, but without being needy or wussy. This is a fine line, and should only be used when the other two just can’t do it for you. (Like saying you are sorry for the way she feels, and not for what you did).

False Anger: “What the hell is that suppose to mean ? Look you, I am very selective about who I bring here, and just because I don’t let everybody into my house doesn’t make me anti-social. I have taste, and only invite in people that I think will being value to my life, so don’t you dare make an issue of it !” At this point, you have addressed the emotional need, but because you took it to an absolute extreme misinterpretation, she will usually get on the defensive, and apologize for any insinuations. The danger with this method is that, depending on if she is damaged goods, it could start an argument. Good for her drama cookie, but bad if you do not know how to manage it. After that, you get to “forgive” her. Her emotional need is addressed, and she got a little drama too. Plus, now that you have had your first “fight,” the rapport you build afterwards will get to be even deeper.

Now for the question you have all been waiting to ask:

Which one do you use ?

The way to determine that comes in two forms:

1) Self-knowledge

2) Calibration

Self-Knowledge: It is important to know yourself. If you naturally gravitate to one of the above three more than the other two, then that is the one that you should use most. In my own experience, I know that I tend to be too serious, and way too intense. Knowing this, I often opt for the pissed off method. I use my intensity to present a false anger, and it is very congruent. But that works for me because that is very close to who I am. Use what is closest to you.

Calibration: Probably the most important skill aid of them all. This involves having to interpret the woman that is testing you, on every level you can. Study her tonality, body language, ethnic upbringing or cultural specifics if you have them … the more info you have on her, the more you can calibrate to her. Some women really like the cocky funny, but with some others, you can blow yourself out of the water. Some will be very attracted to false anger, others will be terrified of you. Calibration here means to adjust your method to give you the best maximum results with that particular girl.

A combination of the above two works best. When in doubt, go with the self knowledge. It may be the wrong one … but you will always come off as congruent, and it keeps the door open for a future sarge attempt.


I have been fortunate enough to have been able to present a lot of great material in the cliff’s list newsletters and now on the website that have made a significant difference in many guy’s lives.

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