The now legendary original post, right here on Cliff’s List, that became the David DeAngelo book Double Your Dating.
The following is a total kick ass business plan to meet and score with top quality women. It comes from one of my favorite brothers who has been on this list for ages but has never contributed before because he is insanely busy with his life. And for those of you who have recently commented that those reading this list are on it because they don’t get laid, you are so off the mark that it isn’t funny. I purposely go out and seek guys who are highly successful with women (from anywhere I can find them, not only those on the SS list by a long shot) and do my best to get them on the subscriber list. And there are guys reading this who are staggeringly successful who I hope one day will do what “Sisonpyh” (hypnosis, backwards, by the way) has done here. After all, do you think that just because someone is successful in an area in their life that they lose interest in it? Does Michael Jordan still talk about basketball? You can be sure that, to the best of my ability, I am out looking to add not only those who can benefit from the advice and comments here, but also the superstars of this real world game to be a part of this list. Without further ado, here is one of the best manuscripts you will find anywhere on how to be successful with women:
*** For reasons that are obvious to some, I have to start by saying that this is my PERSONAL experience and my PERSONAL technique. It is not meant to save you or the world, and much of what I say may not appeal to you. If you don’t like it, don’t use it. It ALL works for me, IN THE REAL WORLD, and has been used over and over and over to get me laid. It all works FOR ME. You don’t need to argue with any of it, unless of course you’re feeling insecure.
I made the decision about two and a half years ago that I needed to get the area of my life ‘handled’ called ‘dealing with women.’ So I made a decision and a commitment to myself and my best friend that I would do whatever it took to learn and ‘figure this out.’ (Read Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill Chapter #1 for more on this mindset).
Background: I had always had ‘girlfriends by default’ as Ross Jeffries calls them. they were there, and I felt lucky to have the opportunity to get them to be my girlfriend. But I never knew how to approach women that I didn’t know, and I could sit in a bar for three hours making eye contact with a woman, and never have the nerve to go talk to her. Right now I’m just turning 30, I’m about 5’10 160. I think I’m reasonably good looking, but I’ve never been the kind of guy that women just walk up and approach. (I say this to give you frame of reference in relationship to the comments in this newsletter relating to looks, etc.) I’ve made myself more attractive by paying attention, learning, and using what works.
When I made the decision to get this part of my life handled, I decided that instead of trying to start with an angle (working at a strip club, becoming famous for something, etc.) that I would like to learn in a way that gave me power to act on just my presentation etc. (I may do the angle thing soon, as I have my skills to the point where I like them now)
First, I looked at myself. I asked “If I were the type of woman that I would like to seduce (I like super hot, very intelligent women), what would make me want to be with a man?”
So I started reading, listening to tapes, going to seminars. you name it. And I started to work on my ‘presentation’ of myself.
I now think that it’s important to get EVERY POSSIBLE thing going for you that you can.
If you have fucked up teeth, that doesn’t prevent you from dressing well. for instance. So don’t let it. Get a cool hair style. Buy nice clothes (don’t tell me that you don’t have the $$$. get on eBay, go to the Nordstrom Rack and look at the clearance items. I did it to begin with.) If you will do just a few key things, they won’t necessarily HELP you get laid, but they’ll get rid of things that are PREVENTING you from getting laid now that you don’t even realize. Make no mistake about it. if you’re interested in the hottest women, you’d better realize right now that these things make a difference. You don’t have to work out 10x a week, but get your body in at least OK shape. You don’t have to have perfect teeth, but make sure that they’re clean and that your breath is great. Learn what nice shoes are, and how to keep them nice. Figure out how colors and clothing go together and what is cool. It’s worth it. I wasn’t ‘cool’ when I started, now I’ve learned how to be. Huge difference. (Am I saying that you can’t get laid if you wear Nike’s and have fucked up hair? No. But remember, a blind pig can find an occasional truffle.)
Here’s my mindset: Keep improving all the time, even if it’s the SMALLEST DETAIL. (I noticed recently that at least once every time I go out, a girl will ask me for a light. I always just said “I don’t smoke” or “No” and left it at that. Couple weeks ago I said “Ah-Ha” and I went to the lighter store SPECIFICALLY to find the coolest lighter that anyone has invented. I bought this trick torch lighter that makes a huge flame. looks like a welding flame. So what do you think happened the first time I went out with it? Right. got asked for a light. and fucking freaked the chick out. Nice.)
I intuitively knew that there were certain major steps to a ‘seduction,’ if you will. This is how my mind naturally thinks.
I’ve now broken these down in my mind to:
1) THE INITIAL APPROACH
2) MAKING THEM TOTALLY FASCINATED WITH ME
3) GETTING THEIR PHONE NUMBER OR EMAIL ADDRESS
4) GETTING THE FIRST MEETING
5) GETTING THEM TO MY HOUSE AND CLOSING THE DEAL
Underpinning all of these is my self image, confidence, personality, and all of that other intangible bullshit that takes a bit to get under control. so let me address how I got that together before I talk about what I do specifically. (By the way. this is the most important part of what I’m writing right now. All the rest has flowed from my attitude and confidence. not the other way around. So if you read nothing else, read this. not the other parts.)
I’ve been studying NLP and hypnosis for years. since before it was cool. because I have always been fascinated by how people work. So I began by creating self image exercises based on NLP and Timeline therapy, and doing them all the time. (Read Frogs Into Princes by Bandler and Grinder and The Secret of Creating Your Future By Tad James) I also started keeping a personal journal of everything that I was learning and doing, so I could reflect on it. And MOST IMPORTANTLY I found and started to hang around with guys that GOT LAID LIKE CHARLIE SHEEN. This was the biggie. I owe much of my success to the guys who showed me in the real world what they did to get laid. It wasn’t the books and the people selling tapes and seminars. It was the real world guys that were getting laid. What I do now resembles nothing that I’ve really read in a book or learned from a guru (With one or two exceptions that I’ll share later). So the BEST advice I can give you is to find about 5 guys in your area that know what the fuck they’re doing, and say “Hey, I really want to get this part of my life handled. can I take you to dinner (no kissing) and pick your brain man?” Be humble and cool, and you’ll make some friends. Like I said, find about 5 different guys so you can get different perspectives and see how it all fits together. By the way, go read the chapter in Think and Grow Rich about the Mastermind as well. IF YOU DO NOTHING ELSE, DO THIS ONE THING. IT WILL MAKE THE DIFFERENCE. If you DON’T do this part, shut your mouth, and keep your learning cap on, you’ll be one of the guys that writes to Cliff saying “Well, when Mystery had this chick that said “I really love it when a man just sweeps me off my feet” why didn’t he use the skydiving suckerfish pattern instead of kissing her?”
Those of you that know what I’m talking about say Amen, please. (I had to say that for us)
I decided recently to start studying comedy, as I’ve found that women respond to it better than any other thing in the whole goddamn entire universe. So I did a bunch of reading on the internet to find the best books, and I bought about 5 or 6 of them. One book that I’m reading right now called “Comedy Writing Secrets” by Helitzer made a great point… He said that most of being funny is the CHARACTER and not the jokes. Most of the guys that I meet who want to learn to get laid are working on the jokes. I did it for about two years myself. Tried to learn all the patterns and all the lines and all the bullshit. It finally dawned on me that women were not really that concerned with all of that. they wanted a particular CHARACTER. The lines didn’t much matter, as long as they fit in with the character. Now that I have created this CHARACTER for women, things are all different. Women now call me. They pursue me. They want to be around me. It’s fucking strange and magical and weird.
So what’s the character that they want? Good question.
I have a good friend who’s the best I’ve ever seen at picking up women in bars and having sex with them that night. Now, I do better getting numbers and closing the deal later. But this guy just kicks ass. And his whole mindset towards meeting women is to be “Cocky and funny” (his words). My opinion is that women are turned off by arrogant men. UNLESS. they’re DAMN FUNNY. This magic combination will attract women like this list attracts guys who don’t get laid. I’m following in my buddy’s footsteps.
I’ll try to summarize my character for you: “I know that this chick is secretly trying to pick up on me. I’m going to play hard to get, make fun of her, be indifferent towards her, and generally bust her balls as much as possible. I know that she loves a guy that is so sarcastic that it makes her nervous, so I’m going to really keep the heat on. and when she starts to show any interest at all on the outside, I’m going to blow her off and make her prove to me that she wants me. so I can reject her again.”
I do crazy shit like if I’m standing next to a girl at a bar, I’ll turn to her and say in a completely serious voice “Will you PLEASE stop touching me?” And then look them right in the eye.
Or say “What are you doing at a bar for godsakes? Can’t you find a nice normal guy? Or are you desperate?” All with a completely straight face.
I say things that make them actually think that I’m serious, but leave a shadow of a doubt.
Here’s what I’m looking for: If they respond in an insecure way and say “Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t know that I was touching you” I’ll keep it going. and say “Well, you did. And if you’re going to keep doing it, I’d appreciate it if you’d touch a little higher.” They crack up.
If they shoot something funny back like “Well, touchy touchy” and they know that I’m kidding, I just stay in character and say “Yes, I don’t like being touched. So keep a foot or so between us please” and keep it going.
And yes, sometimes (not often) I’ll meet a bitch and she’ll get uptight. I just walk away.
If you’re going to do this, you have to remember to keep it going for the entire time. don’t turn into a dumb ass at the first sign of her liking you. I keep up this shit until a chick is in my bed and naked. asking me to have sex with her. and I say “No, I don’t think so. You don’t sound like you really mean it.” I’m not kidding. At all.
OK, so get out there and learn to be cocky and funny. By the way, read ‘Body Language’ by Julius Fast, Chapter 7. about Mike. I’ve read that chapter about 50 times. You may not get it at first, but keep fucking reading it until you do. The more you learn, the more you’ll get it. Also, read ‘The Rules’. yea, the one for chicks. Do that stuff. it works. end all conversations first, etc. Also, read ‘How to Make Love to a Woman’ by Morganstern. Good stuff in there too. And learn how to be funny. do whatever you have to do. It’s the magic ingredient to add to your cockiness that sets the mixture ablaze.
One more quick thing on chicks. I’ve learned that some women don’t really respond well to having their balls busted. These women are usually not as intelligent, and like to think that they ‘deserve to be treated better.’ Interesting combination. If you have one of these on your hands, you can go ahead and treat her well, but you’re going to find sooner or later that MOST LIKELY (not always) she’s going to be a pain in the ass and try to own you. anyway.
Now let’s talk about the mechanics of what I do (and what some of my friends who are get laid kings do).
1) THE INITIAL APPROACH: This one is simple. I’ve tried every goddamn fucking thing that I’ve ever heard. and a few have worked for me. Here they are.
If I’m in an environment that has a lot of people, and I’m with a friend, I like to start by asking a woman for her ‘opinion’ on something. Here’s how it happens. first of all, I keep my eyes open for current affairs and interesting trivia that involves gender differences and tension. This makes for amazing conversation openers with hot intelligent women.
My latest favorite: “Hey, let me ask you a question. My friend and I were talking about something, and I think we need a female perspective.” (This is a killer, by the way. It’s taken me a long time to figure this one out. but it kicks ass). Then I say “I was just looking on the internet. and do you know that the average woman in America is 5′ 4″, weighs 150 pounds, and wears a size 14?” Ohhhhhhhhhh DAMMIT I LOVE THIS ONE!
They usually grab the ball and take off into the conversation with just that.
Others include “Do you think that men understand what women really want and need?” and “What do you think of this new trend of women wanting to pay their own way. and the Charlie’s Angel’s theme song that sings about this as almost a stuck up thing to do?”
You with me here?
After starting a conversation, get into Mr. Cocky and Funny mode, and you’ll do some good work.
If I’m alone, and the chick is alone/with friends I usually start with a compliment opener. depending on the situation. And I always try to tie it into the situation, so it doesn’t sound canned. Women that I run into can smell canned openers. I think that they’re getting popular again or something. because women can sense them like a dog senses kitties.
I might say “Excuse me. I noticed you when I walked in, and I had to take a second to find out what you were like.” or something equally plausible sounding.
What I’ve realized is. if you’re going to approach a woman, what you say doesn’t much matter as much as HOW you say it (remember the character thing?).
2) MAKING THEM TOTALLY FASCINATED WITH ME : I’ve really explained how I make them fascinated with me above. by being cocky and funny at the same time. and busting their balls thoroughly.
But another important distinction that I’ve made is to never be too happy. Women are intrigued when you stay very calm, almost unaffected. The real hotties are used to having men get nervous when talking to them, and they can sense that you’re different when you stay very cool, and calmly talk to them. NEVER let them sense that you’re interested. (By the way, all these rules are different if you’re trying to get married. this stuff is for getting LAID)
3) GETTING THEIR NUMBER: I’ve now stopped going for numbers. instead I get email addresses. Let me explain. I perfected the art of getting phone numbers a couple of years ago. If a woman is single, I can walk up to her and get her number in under 90 seconds. I found out later, after working like a mad scientist on this that numbers don’t = Laid. Can I have an Amen again, my brothers who know what I’m talking about?
OK, so here’s what I do now.
After I’ve talked to a chick for about 3 or 4 minutes, I’ll often say something like “Well, it was nice meeting you. I’m going to get back to my friends.” They usually don’t know what to do, as they’re used to guys clinging. Then, just as I’m turning to walk away. and we kind of disconnect. I turn back and say “Do you have email?”
If they say yes, I take out a pen and paper and have them write it down. (This is great, as I just treat the ‘yes’ that they give me as a yes to get it from them as well. And they’ve ALL gone along with it so far) Then I say “Write your number down there too.” I won’t go into all of it, but this move is a powerhouse. When you ask for email, it’s very low risk for them. so they think “Fine, I’ll do that”. and then when they’re already writing, I get the phone number too. which is more natural.
If they say “no”, and that they don’t have email, then I bust their balls and say “Well, do you have electricity?” Then I say “Well, OK then. I like email better, but I’ll take your regular phone number. it’s so damn hard to reach people on the phone these days.” I hope you get what just happened. OK, then, as they’re writing I say “Is this a number that you actually answer?” If not, then I say “Look, write your real number down. it’s going to be OK, I’ll only call you nine times a day.” They laugh, and give me their real number.
4) GETTING THE FIRST MEETING: Mystery just wrote some genius level stuff about this recently, which really has me thinking. but here’s what I’ve used so far.
First of all, my mindset. I have decided that I need about 20-30 minutes to get to know a woman before I decide that I’d like to spend enough time with her to get laid. I actually like women who I enjoy, and who I’d enjoy seeing for more than just one bang session. So I like to meet them for a cup of tea and talk for a bit, or even let that lead to a bite to eat sometimes. So my mindset is that I’M THERE TO QUALIFY THEM. Not the other way around. They pick this up, and respond accordingly.
Riker says that there are two roads that you can go down. The road of ‘Friends leading to a long term relationship’ or the road of ‘Banging your brains out.’
This is true. Women see men that they get involved with as either long term material or fuck material. You want to be #2. If you like her, you can always switch to #1 later. Trust me. If you get on road #1, you’re going to spend a lot of time and $$$ and most likely never wind up with anything to show for it other than a curious dry feeling just below your abdomen.
Also, I used to be very touchy feely with women. I’d massage their hands, and touch them a lot, etc. leading to kissing etc.
I’ve now learned that if I lean back and kind of almost don’t touch them at all on purpose, it creates this tension, so that when I do actually touch them, they respond powerfully. Milton Erickson calls this ‘Building Response Potential.’
So here’s what I do once I have the email and/or phone number.
First of all, I really do like email better. I get probably 4 out of 5 women that I email to email me back, as opposed to maybe 1 out of 2 or 3 calls returned the first time.
I write and say “Hey, it was nice meeting you last night. what are you up to this week? Would you like to join me for a cup of something wonderful and some stimulating conversation? Talk to me.”
If they don’t answer that one, I write back a couple of days later “What, playing hard to get already? Nice. Talk to me.”
I get most of them emailing me back by this point.
When they do, I say “What’s your # and when’s a good time to reach you?”
Now, here’s why I do this. Duh! When I email them, for some reason they feel like we’re friends because we’ve emailed back and forth. don’t ask me to explain it. it’s fucking taken me two and a half years to figure it out.
They also return your calls after you’ve emailed them a couple of times. again, don’t ask me why. some freaky chick thing.
OK. so, now I’m on the phone with them. I want to get together with them for about 30 minutes and see what they’re like as a person, and decide if they’re someone that I’d like to know better.
I’ll say “Well, let’s see. what’s your schedule for the next few days? (I chose a time.) Why don’t we get together tomorrow at about four. Do you know where the blah blah blah coffee shop is? Great. if we get along, then maybe we can go for a bite to eat. but you know, coffee is a safe bet. this way if you’re scary in person, I can say “Oh, hey. um. I just remembered that I have to go floss my cat. it’s really important.” and then we can call it a night.”
This makes them laugh, but it also gets them thinking “Who the hell is this guy to be qualifying Me?” which is perfect. Next, I tell them that the coffee place is close to my house, and why don’t they just meet me at my place, ring the bell, and I’ll come out and we can go. this way if she’s a few minutes early or late, I don’t have to be waiting (got this from Riker, the fucking genius that he is) Then I say “Now, let me ask you this. what are the chances that you’re going to not show up tomorrow? Because one of my pet peeves is people that are late or flaky. I can deal with a lot of things, but I’m always on time and where I say I’m going to be, and I never have an excuse or don’t show up. so I just wanted to make sure. because if there’s one thing that could end our friendship before it starts, it’s flakiness.” This sets the right tone for flaking, as you can see.
***HERE COMES THE KILLER!
Next, when we’re getting ready to hang up, I say something like “Great, it’s going to be nice to get to know you better. And if nothing else, we can just be FRIENDS.”
It’s taken me and a good friend of mine a long time to get this piece. From here on out, I constantly drop hints about just ‘being friends’ and how I really ‘like her as a friend’ and how ‘it’s nice to meet someone that I like as a friend.’
Hear me on this one. this fucks them up soooooo hard that they literally don’t know what to do. This is most likely the first time IN THEIR ENTIRE LIFE that this has happened to them. And it continually triggers their insecurity and makes them wonder why they’re not attractive enough to you. It also disarms them completely. (You have to really have the mindset that you are qualifying them, and that they’re going to be your friend for this to work.)
5) GETTING THEM TO MY HOUSE AND CLOSING THE DEAL: When they come over to meet me, of course I just happen to need to go put my shoes on, or a belt on, or get my coat or whatever. so they come inside and have to wait for a minute. This way they’re already comfortable in my house. (Thanks again, Riker)
Then I walk out, and seem like I’M IN A HURRY TO LEAVE. Most guys would try to get them to stay and get cozy with them. I want them to think that I’m not interested, and that I want some coffee. Total indifference.
At coffee, I’m just sitting and being my funny cocky self, making jokes, and in general leaning back and making ‘friends.’
I used to analyze handwriting, do palmistry, do hand massages, and touch them. do patterns, whatever. Not anymore. Now I’m just sitting there ACTING LIKE WE’RE BEST FRIENDS. When you act like a they’re a best friend, they will rapidly get comfortable with you. I make fun of people, whatever. I just totally lean back and relax. I’m cool and relaxed, but at the same time making comments about how we’re going to be friends, etc. I’ve learned never to compliment a hot woman on her looks, period. I still fuck up and forget, and I’m always reminded why I don’t do it. I try to find one thing that she’s insecure about, and talk to her about it like ‘a friend’. no overly critical, but not saying ‘no, you shouldn’t be insecure’. I just keep bringing it up, and even making jokes about it.
Here are a couple of rules of thumb that I use:
1) Never give a woman a direct answer. unless the answer is NO. This is a big one. If she says ‘Can we sit here?” I say “No, let’s sit in this one next to it” or if she says “How do you like my dress?” I say “Well, I think that I like it. just give me a few minutes to see it on you” or if she says “Call me tomorrow” I say “No. You call me tomorrow. cummon, you want me and you know it” Get it?
2) If she complains about you or doesn’t like something, turn it up a notch and do it more. If she says to me “I don’t really like it when you say that” I say “Well then you might want to leave, because I say it a lot” Get it?
3) Women are CONSTANTLY testing to see if they can get you to comply with them, and as soon as you do, they hit the road (or marry you). This took me years to see and understand, but the fact is that when you’re dealing with a powerful, hot woman, she will do all fucking kinds of things that make no sense at all logically, but all the sense in the world when you understand her mindset. Hot women can have anything they want. What they want is a challenge. something that keeps their interest. Here it comes. If a woman can have anything she wants anytime she wants it, then WHY THE HELL DO GUYS THINK THAT THEY’RE GOING TO BE INTERESTING BY DOING THE SAME THING THAT EVERY OTHER GUY HAS DONE? Duh. Hey, I used to think this way. but then I got a clue. Now, I pay very careful attention, and never let her have what she wants. If she says “Kiss me” I say “No” if she says come over to my house I say “I’m busy right now, I’ll come over later” if she says “I want you so bad, please make love to me” I say “Well, I think that you need to wait a little longer, and besides, I’m not finished kissing you” Get it? I NEVER give a woman exactly what she asks for. EVER!
4) Always send mixed signals. ALWAYS. Tell her I want to be friends, and kiss her. Tell her that what she just did was unacceptable, then go kiss her. Spank her if she does something nice. Also, respond differently to the same thing. For example, one time if she comes over and sits on my lap, I kiss her. Another time I push her off. get it? Never be predictable. NEVER.
OK, so we’re on the way home from coffee (because I said “OK, let’s go.”) and we’re back at my house. Here’s one that I love. if it’s at night, look at your watch and say “Well, I have to get up in the morning. but. OK, you can come in for a few minutes.”
Fuck that’s great. You’re talking to her like she’s trying to convince you to let her in, and she hasn’t said anything! Nice.
Then I just walk in and let her follow. (By the way, just for the record, I always open doors for women, walk on the outside of the curb, and pull chairs out etc.) If you act chivalrous and bust her balls at the same time, you’ll be rewarded with good things from Santa.
So now we’re in the house. and I take her for a tour. and either sit down on my bed to talk to her, or on the couch. wherever we kind of wind up. And I just kind of get a little quieter and let her talk while I look at her. I lean away from her and keep looking. sometimes looking away as if I’m thinking about something.
Then, I reach over and start stroking her hair while she’s talking. I stroke down at the bottom first. If she’s OK with this, I take it as a sign that she’s WAAYYYYY into me and is probably going to be wanting sex within 60 minutes (if you have any doubts, ask a woman if she’ll let a guy stroke her hair while she’s on his bed on the first date if she’s not into him).
This is a big piece of the puzzle that I’ve figured out. I used to do all kinds of massages and other stuff, but I now use the simple hair stroke test. If they like their hair stroked, they are at VERY LEAST going to be making out with me in short order, period. I’ll occasionally do a hand massage here, or a little neck massage, but next I pull her close to me and cuddle with her. and then land the killer.
I have personally always liked the way women smell. so when she’s laying next to me with me stroking her hair, I begin to smell her shoulders. just a little at first, and then more and more. while stroking her hair. Within about 5 or 10 minutes, I’m smelling her neck and ears. no kissing, and no groping at all. Never! I’m just smelling, then leaning back and acting like I’m completely enjoying the smelling, and it’s relaxing me. Try this, my friends. if you can keep on smelling. she’ll get so turned on that you won’t believe it! At some point she’ll try to kiss me. which is what I’m waiting for. I will let her lips get close to mine. even touch just a teensy bit. and then I’ll back away. And keep smelling. I might say “Oh, you’re kind of forward” . love it. After a few of these, I’ll kiss her. and run my hands through her hair. the whole romantic kiss thing. then, again, I’ll stop. I personally like it when a woman is pleading with me to make love to her. which I can do almost every time (Please don’t take this as bragging, which it surely is. but I’m serious. It’s damn fun.)
Then, when it’s over, I don’t call them.
And yes, they always call me.
I’m too busy right now to really answer questions, so please don’t dissect this and ask me a million, because you won’t hear from me again for awhile. thanks.
Well, this is my contribution after reading for years. I hope it helps.
Thank you to all the guys that I’ve learned from. Rick, Steve, , Eric, Riker, Bish. you guys have made a huge difference in my life. Again, it’s what works for me, and YOU have to find what works for YOU. I think that if you commit to getting it handled, and keep learning and improving yourself. and find some kick ass guys to learn from, you can find your own style and your own success. To all the guys that are busy finding reasons why a certain type of girl won’t like you, that’s bullshit. It only exists if you believe that it does. You can have any fucking thing you want in your life. if you’re willing to figure out how to get it, and you’re willing to work hard, kick ass, and pay the price. Everything else is bullshit.