We’ve had some really great response to my last email and we’re going to keep the momentum going.  I started thinking about this even more and realize that I have a lot of stories and anecdotes about these problems that guys have that get in the way of their having success with women and I will be sharing more and more of them as I think of them.

Don’t forget that ALL of the comments that are appearing here in this Cliff’s List series are original remarks by some of the world’s greatest pick up artists, seduction coaches, dating experts and ladies men specifically written for these emails.

And if you buy products or services (including live trainings like bootcamps) from any of the coaches or groups mentioned here, let them (and us) know that you found out about them from Cliff’s List and for each purchase you make from them we will send you in addition a free bonus product.

We started discussing looks in my last email and, as I thought about it, I have a lot more to say on the subject.

One of our readers, Karl, commented with the following:“As you insinuated – Hayley Quinn brings up some good points but women do go after looks. It’s just a fact.  Game or no game (and I am not a believer in the marketing myth of “game conquers all”)  – women like tall good looking men. It’s natural for them to do so. The old community mantra that “looks don’t matter” or “matter as much” is just a mixture of a PUA who got lucky with a beautiful woman or just marketing. Any “guru” or PUA who says or markets that is not to be trusted.”

Karl, I really appreciate your taking the time to write down your comments and send them in.

I think that I could start writing up a long list of exceptions to what you say to the point where I think you would have to agree that, while looks are more important to some women than we would like, there definitely are many hot women who have gotten involved with physically unappealing men, and not for their money.

For some reason I am reminded of a few things from this, one of them was an interview conducted by the infamous Pierre Woodman, a man who runs a porn empire that has his unique spin on it.  He does these interviews with women who came to see him for regular modeling jobs and he films them as he interviews them, letting them know that the job is really in the porn industry and in these interviews he asks them a wide range of personal, intimate questions.  While many women won’t stick around and leave at various stages of these interviews, a surprising number end up performing with him in a spontaneous casting couch sex film which he ends up adding to his vast library of “auditions.”  I remember him, in his mid-fifties at the time, interviewing this one 20 year old Russian woman.  As my friend Max would say, women don’t get any better looking – they only look different.  This girl was quite spectacular.  Woodman asks her how many men she’s slept with and she answers 250.  He says, “So you are a prostitute or in the sex industry?” To which she answers something to the effect of, “no, that’s just what’s happened in my life.”  While there’s a lesson in that (and the fact that she continued on to have sex with the much older Woodman and consented in writing to him filming it and using it as he wishes), this also reminded me of something else I had seen happen with many women who started out being focused on looks.  Once a woman has had a lot of experience like this one, men’s looks start to blur.  Not only do they not see the difference between the good looking and the not so good looking, but many of them have bad experiences with good looking men while they are in their 20’s and I have known several women who claimed they would never again go out with a guy who was good looking. Of course this is not a “rule” that falls into place at a certain time in all woman’s lives, but it does speak to the fact that for many women your looks can be, among other things, a question of timing.  If you get to her before she gets jaded on good looking men and she’s the type to whom looks matter, being good looking will work to your advantage.  If you get to her a bit later in her life where she’s done with good looking men, your looks will work against you.

Here’s what Dr. Ali of the Tao of Dating had to say when I asked him his opinion:

Of all the problems you can have, looks would seem to be the most intractable of them all. I mean, how do you change the face you were born with? Here are some ideas for dealing with that:

1) Looks matter a lot more to guys than they do to women. A women cares a lot more about how you make her feel, rather than how you look. And here’s the secret: if you make a woman feel good, you will look good in her eyes. There’s even research backing this up. How the hell else do you explain all these hotties you know who are married to total trolls?

2) This brings us to things that matter even more than your looks, namely status. That’s what women respond to at a deep, unconscious level. So if you dress stylishly, take up lots of space as you sit, dance well, are generous, speak with a deep resonant voice, hold her gaze, and speak slowly with lots of pauses built in, and generally have your act together, you will convey high status. And she will find you attractive regardless of what you look like.

3) Grooming and style matter. If you were born looking like the Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons, at the very least don’t dress like The Comic Book Guy. Get help from a female friend or a stylish dude and look sharp. It makes up for a lot.

4) And finally, the silver bullet: get massively successful. This doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to make a pile of money (never hurts), but if you take a year of your life to get your act together and be world-class in whatever it is that you do, then you will never be short on quality female companionship. And that’s a pretty good tradeoff: a year or two of work to put you in a good spot for ever and all time.

And here are some comments from Blackdragon

“Though I’ve lost weight since then, most of the successes I’ve had with women over the last several years were when I was almost 250 pounds. That’s 250 pounds of fat, not muscle. During that time I had very strong doubts about whether I could attract the type of women I wanted. I forced myself to assume a confident and outcome independent frame. In the beginning I had to fake it. I also made sure to address every other aspect of my physical presence (grooming, fashion, body language, eye contact, voice tonality, etc) so that my weight was my only negative. Though I had to put in a decent amount of numbers, this worked. During the years of 2008-2010, I slept with some of the most attractive women I had ever seen in my life, without having to spend money on them, at my heavy weight. Confidence and outcome independence can indeed overcome a sub-optimal appearance, even if you have to fake it a little when you first get started.”

And next we have comments from Manwhore:

“Most “Western society” modern men who do not consider themselves “good looking” attribute way too much importance to it, their self-confidence suffers unjustly and this causes them to lose out on the MOST important trait a man can have in attracting women! Social mastery/dominance is a much more alluring trait to women than a man’s “looks,” and in fact can be completely mesmerizing to her. 

“And there’s good news! Being socially dominant does NOT consist solely of “negging” or in general being an asshole to women. Speaking powerfully with great eye contact and a relaxed yet forceful vibe will stop most women in their tracks. Knowing how to tell a good story, and speaking strongly on your convictions has a VERY powerful effect on women. Plus these are communication skills that ANY man can train in and become extremely adept at, and in turn can be used to attract women in any social scenario.

“The problem is that most men judge their lack of traditional “good looks” so harshly that many if not all of them have an INCREDIBLY hard time speaking with conviction and clarity, and simply aren’t comfortable in front of a woman. Instead they’re nervous and mumble and don’t make good relaxed eye contact, or don’t take themselves seriously enough to try to get a woman’s attention in the first place. So what invariably happens is their negative beliefs about their lack of good looks are reinforced, and the negative cycle continues! “

That’s it for this newsletter.  I have some great comments coming from a lot of other great coaches who have sent in comments on height, fear, having fun, negative attitudes including feeling you don’t deserve the women you want, feeling unattractive due one’s race, etc.  and I’ll be posting them all here soon. If you disagree with any of these comments, or have some insights to add to this discussion, please email me your thoughts.

Keep your eyes glued to your email mailbox for the next Cliff’s List Newsletter for more discussion on the wide variety of problems men face to improve their success with women!




I have been fortunate enough to have been able to present a lot of great material in the cliff’s list newsletters and now on the website that have made a significant difference in many guy’s lives.

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