Cliff interviews Ross Jeffries, the self-proclaimed Father of the Seduction Community !
Clifford: Let’s start with an introduction, please tell a bit about yourself, your history with women, your story.
Ross: Cliff, many people would say I’m the father (or indeed the GRANDfather) of the seduction community.
I first got involved with all of this way back in 1988, when I wrote and published my original book; How To Get The Women You Desire Into Bed, A Down And Dirty Guide To Dating And Seduction For The Man Who’s Fed Up With Being Mr. Nice Guy. That book detailed my first experiments with using NLPas a tool both for self-change and for attracting and seducing women.
Then, in 1993, I introduced the Speed Seduction® seminars and the first SS Home Study Course, followed shortly thereafter by getting on the web with http://www.seduction.com in 1994.
At that time, if you typed in “seduction” only ONE site came up, mine! So it was a pretty free ride for quite a long time!
Cliff: I think you are being too modest here. I was “around” (although there was nothing really “around” at the time) before your book came out – whenever I saw anything that talked about “picking up women”, I bought it. The material that was out there before you put out your book was pretty lame, with the most well known probably being Eric Weber’s How to Pick Up Women. I don’t know if you remember this, but back somewhere around 1990 I heard that you were on the Phil Donahue Show (I didn’t see it) and I called them up in NYC and they gave me your phone number. I called you up and ordered your book. It was definitely the best thing I had ever seen on having success with women and somehow or other I flew down to L.A. and met with you. At that time the term “Speed Seduction” hadn’t been coined yet by you, but you had a lot of interesting ideas. I think we stayed in touch for awhile and then I got involved in a relationship and we lost touch for a few years. When that ended, I heard about you again and at this time you had made major changes to what you were doing and were now teaching professional seminars – I ordered your Advanced Masters Series Tapes (which were for years my favourite product of this nature and which I must have listened to hundreds of times), studied and memorized several of the patterns you were teaching, and I signed up for the next event that you were giving and flew to Maui to attend your Speed Life Seminar. Back then you were really the only thing going. Further, the place to be on the Internet was the SS List – there really was nothing else that competed with that for the attention of anyone seriously interested in seduction. (I seem to remember, and I never really looked into the details, that you set up alt.seduction.fast or ASF as a decoy seduction forum to distract certain interested parties who were not ones you wanted on the SSList. ASF somehow or other, from what I understand, got taken over by the guys athttp://www.fastseduction.com and is probably now the main discussion group in the community). While the stories about the above may not directly help someone to improve their success with women, I am interested in you taking a few paragraphs and going over the history of the development of the community as you experienced it. There are a lot of new and many young guys involved today who know little or nothing of our “rich heritage” that you were an integral part of and I am sure most if not all of them would be interested to read about how all this developed.
Ross: Ok then. Some more on the “history” using what you have said:
Back then, before my first book, basically the only thing that had been out on the market about success with women was Eric Weber’s classic, “How To Pick Up Girls”(which I bought in college for $10, but somehow it didn’t work for me!)
After writing the first book, I got myself on every major tv talk show that was on the air at the time, except for “Oprah”. That includes “Donahue”: a producer for the show read an ad I had written and placed in an industry trade mag that caters to TV talk producers. The morning it ran, she called me and within a few days I was on a plane to NYC and my TV career got started.
Since then I would say I’ve been on dozens of shows, all over the world, including Hard Copy, Politically Incorrect, Geraldo (A right bastard, that guy!), you name it, plus articles in Playboy, Penthouse, Rolling Stone and newspapers and magazines in many languages. The publicity engine still keeps rolling and I don’t even have to make an effort: THEY still contact ME!
The really big thing happened in 1993 when a student of mine who was, ahemm “skilled” at computer programming created Alt.Seduction.Fast to give me a presence on usenet (which was the big thing at the time; the web was still in its infancy). Most guys reading this don¹t realize ASF was created as a forum to discuss and promote Speed Seduction®. Of course, we know what’s happened to ASF since, but who can predict what will happen on the net?
But back then ASF was THE place to discuss seduction; in truly was the ONLY forum out there for guys looking to improve their game, and remained so for many years.
1994 the same student got us up on the web. Back then, if you punched in “seduction” on the few primitive search engines that WERE out there, only ONE site came up-OURS!
Ah..for the good old days. There was NO Google or Overture ads either; in fact, I don’t think either of those sites or search engines were around back then! Can you believe what old timers we are, Cliffy?
Cliff: Tell us a bit about your media experiences. Back in those days, being on TV talking about seduction must have made you a big target and I remember they were looking to show you up. I also remember the guys all huddled over the old sargy channel chat line while watching you on Politically Incorrect, and you making sure everyone noticed the expensive new shoes you were wearing.
Ross: Generally speaking, TV talk shows are looking for sound-bites; little 30 second clips that will get people to stay tuned in while they are flipping channels. I’ve always been good at that sort of thing, so I KNEW how to bait producers.
It got to the point where, during the pre-show briefings, the producer would point at me and say to the other guests, “If you get confused on how to act, just watch Ross.”
Before you do these shows, they do phone interviews with you, to get a feel if you know how to talk. These women (90% of the producers are female) would wet themselves at how good I was in coming up with the little bits to say, like, “For women, getting laid is a choice, for men, getting laid is a chore” or “You don’t get laid, I don’t get paid”.
Same kind of stuff in my marketing, for which I still take some flack, but that is EXACTLY the kind of thing you HAVE to write to get people’s attention. As one of my early marketing guru’s, Gary Halbert, would say, “No one has time to try to figure out your pathetic subtlety!”.
The thing about these shows is, basically, they try to make it a public lynching. It’s like wrestling; they have to have SOMEONE “be the bad guy” to rile up the studio audiences, which usually have a collective IQ of about 92. So of course, they’d try throwing ME to the lions.
My strategy was (and still is) to take control IMMEDIATELY. Talk about “alpha”; I challenge all the Alpha/PUA guys to be able to go on a show like Geraldo and take control away from him RIGHT OUT OF THE CHUTE.
He would ask me questions, cut to a commercial or another guest and I would INSIST on answering his question. One of my favorite tactics was to IMMEDIATELY correct the host, whomever it was, on my first introduction.
That was usually pretty easy, as they almost always got the title of my book, How To Get the Women (that’s “women”, plural) You Desire Into Bed, wrong. They used the term “Woman”, singular. So that was easy to correct. Or they’d flub up or leave out some other detail, so I’d jump in to correct them.
The other thing to bear in mind is, I could and did easily cut the audience to shreds. If some fat, stupid, dumbass trailer-trash ho got up to insult me, I’d slam her way back down into her seat by being incredibly cut-throat with her. That riled the audience up even more.
The worst audience experience was a show in New York called “Faith Daniels”.
Faith’s brilliant producer had the idea of surprising me with an all female audience; I guess she thought I would somehow crack.
Instead, I was at my full-blown most insulting and vicious and as a result, they had to security escort me to the limo. There was a small mob of VERY angry women waiting for me at the door and they were NOT happy. I managed to roll down the limo window as we were driving away and offer something along the lines of, “You chicks better be good in the kitchen, cuz no one is going to want to take YOU into the bedroom”. Or something like that.
I actually LOVED taunting the crowds. I would stand backstage, ready to be introduced, and picture that scene from Enter the Dragon. You know the one; Bruce Lee is in some underground complex and he is suddenly surrounded by goons, and they are all holding weapons of some kind. He gets this look on his face..a slow grin..and you know he is thinking, “Hey…I’m not trapped in here with YOU. YOU’RE trapped in here with ME!”
More recently though, the media has been a lot nicer. I don’t do “talk shows” per se anymore. My favorite all time show (and one that STILL gets me recognized) was Louis Thereoux’s Weird Weekend. He’s a brilliant, BRILLIANT guy, very funny, who travels around the world, visiting wacky people, “taking the piss” out of them, as his fellow Brits would say.
In my case, he was doing a show on hypnosis, that featured me, Marshal Sylver, and a couple of other people. I was the only one who came off as being totally legit; I actually taught Louis to pull chicks and he picked up a nice on one camera, using what I told him to do. I’m still in touch with him in fact; he’s writing a book about his favorite guests and I’ll be featured in it.
As for Politically Incorrect; ha, that was a dream of mine. I got that one because, at the time, Hollywood was panting after the movie rights to my life story, as a result of the Rolling Stone article that came out in 1998 (more on that in a second). So, I optioned it to Brillstein/Grey, or, more accurately, to a client of theirs who was a writer, and my perk was that they get me on PI, which they were producing at the time.
I dominated that show totally; I’d say of about 25 minutes of air-time, I was speaking for 19! You’ve got to be totally pushy, indeed “Alpha” to survive on those shows. I don’t remember any new shoes; I do remember wearing a $3,000 Brioni suit that I bought when I found out I was going to be on that show!
But I would say the best publicity…the biggest publicity breakthrough I ever had, was the 1998 Rolling Stone story, by Erik Heddegaard. To this day, he has done the best, most objective reporting on Speed Seduction® and the community built around it.
He immersed himself in the story. Followed me around for days, came to the seminar, followed the guys around, and his was the FIRST magazine story to say, “Hey..it works. This guy is NOT lying. I may not like him, he’s a bit odd, and I object to some of what he does, BUT IT WORKS, JUST AS HE SAYS IT DOES.”
His editors, indeed some of the publishers of RS were NOT happy with the story he turned in. They didn’t want to be seen as endorsing SS, and tried to get him to change it, but he stuck with his guns and insisted on keeping the story he wrote. As he told me, “I wrote what I saw”.
To this day, Rolling Stone has REFUSED to sell me reprint rights. They don’t want to be seen to be in any way endorsing what I do. What uptight fucks.
I’ve also been lied about a lot by print media. I’ve had articles written from people who CLAIMED to be at seminars who were never even there. I’ve had “quotes” attributed to me that I never even came CLOSE to saying. For the most part, so called “journalists” are scum who couldn’t get a REAL job.
Remember, there are NO licensing or other requirements to be a “journalist”.
More importantly, they write on deadlines and very few (Erik H is a notable and honorable exception) have the time to truly investigate anything. So if what you are doing really IS new, really IS different, they have no real time to examine it. They either have to just take the easy way out, and ridicule it, or simplify it down into something that doesn’t even resemble what you are teaching.
Overall, the worst experience I’ve ever had with ANY media was around 1999. Fox News, in LA, snuck hidden cameras into my seminar for an “expose” on me.
This betrayed the confidence and the sanctity of the teacher/student relationship and just fucking infuriated me. I considered suing, but my attorney at the time told me I’d be fighting Rupert Murdoch – not a good idea unless I was prepared to take years and spend every penny I had. No thanks.
But it did wise me up and from that point on, anyone attending a seminar has to sign an agreement expressly forbidding the possession or use of any recording device of any kind, among other things. That will NEVER happen to me again.
What most guys don’t know is I’ve done FAR more radio than TV; at least 400 radio shows over the years. Radio is FAR more enjoyable, far more fun, and you can actually discuss things with some real substance, without having to pack it all into 30 second bites. I actually did Tom Leykis’ program on KFI, 640, in Los Angeles, about half a dozen times in the early 90’s. I think he got the basic idea for Leykis 101 from those shows we did and looking at the giant ratings I got him. He made it very clear to me that the ratings when I was on were sky high. That was usually the case with most shows; we’d MELT the phone lines. I miss doing radio and always welcome the chance to do a radio show whenever it’s offered and whenever I can.
Cliff: Let’s move on to what motivated you to write your book in the first place and tell us a bit about your own history with women. How did you find or come up with most of the techniques in that first book (as much of it is not related to NLP from what I can remember)?
Ross: I first got into NLP around 1987. I was working a phone line at night, reading off odd-job listings to clients who called into the service and I began to get regular callers. One of them told me about Anthony Robbins book, Unlimited Power, which I promptly went out and got.
And I thought, “this is crap”. I actually wound up throwing it in the closet, with a host of other books I didn’t like. So my first exposure to NLP wasn’t very auspicious, to say the least.
After a few other false starts with NLP books, leading to me pretty much writing it off as crap, I was walking through a now defunct bookstore, past the psychology/self-help section. Now, I swear, Cliff, what I am about to tell you is true, with NO embellishment. My arm just reaches up as I am walking by and pulls down a book. I had to have seen it out the corner of my eye and recognized it, unconsciously.
It was “Frogs Into Princes”, by Bandler and Grinder, the guys who created NLP. It is actually one of the few books they did that is readable by the general public and one of the first that was basically transcriptions of some seminars they did.
So, I sit down on the floor, thinking, “Ok, it’s more of that NLP crap. I’ll read it for 5 minutes and then that’s it.
Well, by page 10, I was HOOKED. I can still recall that excitement of discovery. They were laying out concepts and ideas that I had struggled to formulate, asking brilliant questions. I couldn’t believe how intelligent and clear it all was.
From then on, I was determined to master NLP. I got my hands on every book on NLP and Ericksonian hypnosis, plus videos of Bandler that I swapped with a friend of mine who was into it at the time. (Remember at that time there was NO Internet and no file sharing! No DVD’s! Just videos!)
So I started trying this stuff out to solve my own shyness and attractiveness problems with women (plus doing other crazy shit like walking up to people in airports and asking if they had fears or phobias they wanted cured..remember, again, this was a different time!). I had read books on attracting women, etc. and they NEVER worked for me, but this WAS working. So much so that sometimes I got a strange sense of unreality, as in: did I really just get a blow job from that hot chick I met half and hour ago? Did that REALLY happen? (Which I find is common with my students today when this stuff first works for them: they can’t believe it!)
Now, I had a few books laying around on getting women, and one morning I woke up and thought, “I can do better than this!”
So I took what I had learned about NLP and Ericksonian Hypnosis and I just started writing. I would write on my lunch and coffee breaks at work, when I worked as a paralegal, and then at night I would go to a friend’s house and use his word processor. Then my late sister Joan (may she rest in peace) loaned me my first computer: an Osborne. Does anyone remember those things?
They came in a “portable” case, and they had a tiny screen/display in the center, about 6 by 6 and two floppy drives, each with an astounding 640K as I recall. I wrote on that thing until it had a fatal crash and I threw it out my third floor window into the dumpster.
Anyway, that first book, which Yates and I still sell today, How To Get The Women You Desire Into Bed: A Down And Dirty Guide To Dating And Seduction For The Man Who’s Fed Up With Being Mr. Nice Guy, was born in that fashion.
The first editions were actually just 8 1/2 by 11 paper, printed on one side, that we stapled together on my Mom’s kitchen table! This was before Yates and Straightforward came along, before any Internet, before any of it. We’re talking the STONE AGE. But somehow, we made it work.
Oh..as for my history with women, the less said, the better. It is amazing that, even at my ugliest and geekiest (through college I was 6 foot 2 and 127 lbs of skeletal emaciation..ouch…it hurts to even talk about it in print), women still liked me on occasion, and even wanted me, but for the most part, due to my own issues with fear, shame over my body image, etc. I seldom did anything about it. I had a terrible, TERRIBLE inferiority complex over my body. It was so shameful, I didn’t have mirrors in my room and wouldn’t look in the mirror after I got out of the shower in the morning.
Believe me, I am WELL suited to teach almost any guy about this stuff, because no matter where a guy might be, I’ve been in that hole, and deeper.
I can remember visualizing being in a deep pit and pulling myself up one rung at a time, until one day I would be out, and this was BEFORE I discovered NLP. It just was a visualization that kept me going.
Guys need to understand that MANY of the guys now out there teaching have ALWAYS been good with women, ALWAYS done well, and don’t have clue one about the struggles many of us have to go through. They may well have things that work FOR THEM, based on THEIR history, and what THEY can bring to the table, but do they understand YOUR world and what will work for YOU? Could be..but maybe not.
Cliff: How did the evolution occur from the first book to the actual development of Speed Seduction?
Ross: I always knew there was a pretty good persuasion model for NLP, but I never had, up til around 1992, a chance to truly study it.
Then through some circumstances not worth explaining, I got to privately study with someone who was well known in the NLP world for sales and persuasion. And it really got me thinking about the power of language to move people, and so Speed Seduction initially was built on my observations and experiments with what I learned.
Cliff: Just what IS Speed Seduction? How does it work?
Ross: Goodness. I could talk for hours about this.
I think Speed Seduction has layers and levels to it. The first and most important would be the beliefs and understandings about what moves people; what opens the imagination and emotions of people, and what are the processes that people have, inside, that cause them to feel love, attraction, desire, lust?
So first, it is a set of beliefs and tools for observing and understanding what is going on inside the bodies and minds of women (and people in general, for that matter). When a woman subjectively feels attraction, lust, desire, interest, what is going on, INSIDE of her, as a unique person, that creates that experience?
Second, it is a set of tools for using your language to open those layers of her mind that she uses to generate lust, desire, attraction, etc; all those emotional “recipes” that she individually runs on herself to produce the end behaviors of wanting to be with us in sexual and romantic ways.
And I want to stress SS has very much grown past being about spouting memorized “patterns”; although there is certainly still a time and place for canned and memorized stuff, so much more can be used when you get HER talking, get HER responses and use those. The model since 1998 has been to let her responses, structures, internal “recipes”, and words power 80% of the seduction.
Beyond all that, Speed Seduction® is about a recognition that any BEHAVIOR we want from women is state dependent and emotion dependent. So drive first for the emotions and states that would be natural for her to do the behaviors from, and the behaviors will come.
Finally, Speed Seduction has a HUGELY powerful model for self-confidence; for breaking through and breaking past the fears, fixed ideas, limiting beliefs and screwed up responses and actions that keep so many guys from having success with women. “Inner game” as some would say, but advanced WAY beyond what most would even consider possible, we have it wired.
You see, the challenge is: how do you take a guy who has had a very tough time in a very emotionally charged area of life, and get him to put his limited self-image and beliefs and behaviors aside LONG enough to actually move up the learning curve and gain mastery of some very new and different skills? That’s tough enough for guys who have A HISTORY OF SUCCESS WITH WOMEN. How do you do that with guys who have NO good memories or experiences (or very few) to keep them encouraged during the inevitable bumps and grinds of learning a new skill set?
We’ve got that one licked. Totally. It’s a HUGE technical challenge which no one else in the community is even addressing, let alone solving, but we ARE addressing it and we HAVE solved it.
This way, change doesn’t have to feel like a part of you is fighting you or holding you back. You are 100% aligned, learning elegantly from what you did wrong and advancing with what you did right and you can handle mistakes in stride, without falling into doubt, depression, old ways of thinking, etc.
I’m very, VERY proud of that breakthrough; a result of 5 years of thinking and experimenting and big contributions from Kim and Tom of essential-skills.com, my personal healer and newest member of theSS teaching team, Shirleen Rodrigues, and my yoga teacher, Mark Whitwell (http://www.yogaofheart.com)
Clifford: Skipping ahead: What do you think are the biggest breakthroughs in Speed Seduction over the past 2-3 years?
Ross: Well let me start over the past year to six months: I think myself, and my team of people have truly cracked the code on defeating learned helplessness and on truly “re-wiring” guys who have had a history of deep failure.
Look, the problem with any “system” of success with women you want to study, whether it is mine, or one of the dozens of others out there is this:
No matter how good THEIR advice might be, how do you take all of your old habits, old ways of thinking, feeling and acting around women, and set them aside long enough to give someone else’s “system” a fair try, without “contaminating” the new “information” with your old ways of viewing things?
Imagine all your mistakes, limiting beliefs, and negative emotions as a pane of glass that you are holding up in front of your face, through which you are looking at new skills, new ideas, new ways of believing.
Everything “new” is going to be colored by what you are looking through; as if I took your sunglasses, dipped them in dog-shit, and handed them back to you. Even the most perfect sunset is going to look BROWN.
Now, a guy can temporarily fire himself up, work up a head of motivation, and while he is in that “soap bubble” of motivation, try something new.
If by chance everything goes perfectly THE FIRST TIME OUT IN THE FIELD, then maybe he’ll keep going.
But as soon as things don’t work completely or at all, what happens?
He views the experience through all the doubt, crap, negative emotion and there goes any chance at learning or continuing until he can battle his negativity and work himself up into a froth of motivation again.
Do you see the cycle, the process, the structure here?
Now, many guys will make it worse: they will keep dwelling on the mistake or fuck up.
Because brains work on rehearsal and familiarity, what happens is, the mistake is now being reinforced by the process of dwelling on it (especially with strong negative emotion attached) and sure enough, when it is time to act in the real world, the BRAIN REPEATS THE MISTAKE BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE GUY INADVERTENTLY PROGRAMMED TO BE FAMILIAR BY DWELLING ON IT!
Even worse, when dwelling on mistakes, you are not just reinforcing the fucked-up behavior, but reinforcing your entire old self-image, with all the beliefs, attitudes and limits that you are struggling to transcend! Anytime you see an image of yourself in a memory or fantasy, you are reinforcing all the things you associate to that image.
This is a big issue the entire community either won’t look at, or just doesn’t know how to address.
It’s one thing to take a guy who has lots of good, strong, positive experiences and help HIM get better. But teaching a guy who has had a lot of failure, pain, shitty results and bad habits how to do something new, without falling back into old ways of thinking and responding and acting is a TOUGH CHALLENGE.
However, we’ve got it licked. I’ve spent 5 years of research and work to come up with answers and I know we’ve got the problem SOLVED. It took looking at the issue from different perspectives and different disciplines, but we have it and no one else is even close.
Cliff, just as an example of the impact this work can have, here is an email from a student, with his full, real name, city, state and email so anyone with questions can contact him. Note that he properly ascribes his changes to the work HE is doing, a practice of daily examination and change, rather than some miracle we did TO him:
“Hey everyone – Everyday I’ve been doing at least ten minutes of Yoga, followed by the Breath of Fire, then the Mmm-chi (I call it the Chi Circulation exercise from Shirleen.)
Before Speed Life, it was a constant and consistent occurrence to be plagued with endless flashes of painful memories – anything from kids picking on me in school, to something hurtful a girl said to me, to experiences with my parents growing up. It was what life was like – my body always had tension in it to some degree… Chronic sweating, tight shoulders, etc. This was what the experience of life felt like and I was so used to it, I thought this was what life was!! I would think, “How could anyone just be comfortable around other people??”
Even doing the first exercise, the first day, things started to shift for me. Now painful memories barely ever come up, I stick my symbol onto them and they neutralize… and they stay gone!! Plus on the few occasions they do come up, my bodily experience is so different from what it was, I don’t have a reaction… I’m actually amused when an old memory comes up, since NOW I see it as a symbol of how far I’ve come and how different I am today. ** I truly feel like a different person… my past has finally released its painful grip on me. ** I can even laugh now about things that would have made me uncomfortable or set me off before!!
And the daily rituals have kept me grounded in the state I was in during the seminar – clearly, I was blissfully happy during the seminar, surrounded by the beauty of Cancun and feeling that I had truly conquered my ‘demons,’ if you will. When I returned home, I was a little afraid that the changes might not stick.
And so I used the 3d-mind on that belief!! LOL, it worked, cause afterward I relaxed and realized that there’s no reason I wouldn’t continue this change for as long as I want it. I know how to keep myself clear and grounded, through daily breathing and ritual.
And I know, from this point of mental and energetic clarity, that I can see any problems or patterns that are holding me back (if not immediately then within a short time…)
AND I’m excited when I find a negative belief or pattern, since I have all the tools I need to neutralize it!! I see challenges as new opportunities to wrap my mind around and, through it, grow.
I’ve always been someone who’s aimed for self-improvement. However, even so, there used to be lingering parts of me that were afraid of some aspects of self-inspection and of what a change might do to me.
Now, I boldly observe and address any challenge that comes my way, with clarity and intelligence. Even when people test me (and believe me, I have had some *very* trying experiences since Speed Life), I have been able to remain next to totally clear and conscious and firmly stand my ground (respectfully and in a respectable manner.)
The change in my character is so profound, so apparent that *I* almost don’t believe it!! My friends have all commented on how much better I seem – ‘more balanced,’ ‘more relaxed/laid back,’ ‘more fun,’ ‘less serious,’ etc. I had always dreamed of people seeing me in the way that people are starting to see me. It’s truly a dream come true (in progress.)
… And I was expecting this to be a short e-mail (I’ve got a lot of issues to take care of right now, so my time is limited.) But I’ll be popping in here occasionally and sharing some experiences with you. Feel free to ask me about anything too.
-Eric Mertz, Boston, MA email@example.com
Clifford: This is clearly a breakthrough of major importance. We’ve all seen guys that take seminars and over the course of one weekend make huge changes in their lives, but there are many guys who just lack enough social development to make permanent changes whether easily or with great difficulty. I am curious how someone interested in benefiting from this work will do so – will this only be taught one-on-one, only in your seminars, or will there be a product that they need to buy and if so in what format will that be in (eg. e-book, CDs, etc.)? Is this available now, if not, when, and what will the price range be?
Ross: Well, I did a pretty thorough job of going through this as a big part of Speed Life 2004, in Cancun, and I’m reviewing the videos. There is also other stuff on there either not related or marginally related to this issue, so I don’t know how I would break it down.
I may offer a separate training on this, or create a product specifically addressing it.
I can see applications WAY beyond the seduction game. I think there are big applications for mood control, ending or strongly limiting depression, maintain motivation consistently, etc. etc. etc.
It’s a big element of leadership too; maintaining a vision of where you want to go that is NOT dependent on your environment for validation and support, yet stays open enough to the environment to learn from feedback.
You see, there are highly motivated sociopaths and psychotics (I’ve run into them in the “guru” game) who don’t need any support from their environment to keep going, but they are also out of touch with reality because they don’t pay attention to any feedback! Then there are people totally dependent on external sources for morale and motivation. They are open to feedback, but they have no vision.
A real leader has to have both. In the real world, you had better have a strong vision AND the ability to learn from feedback.
Clifford: So is there some option open if someone wanted to undergo this training right now? Is there some one-on-one consultation you will consider doing, on a price that you would negotiate privately? I know if I were badly in need of this, I would very much want to know how to get this now and not wait until you had everything finished.
Ross: At some point, in a few months, we will probably offer a weekend training solely on this theme if I can get the co-operation and consent of my co-trainers. I could do one exclusively using only my own tech, and it would be fine, but I would want to offer the best and that would incorporate the work-product and intellectual property of others, which I obviously would not do without their co-operation, participation and consent.
Clifford: What do you think of the “Alpha Male” “PUA” approach to success with women?
Ross: Some of these guys have come up with some behavioral moves that make some sense, given a certain context and a certain type or kind of woman.
For example, IF you are dealing with a party girl – a chick whose main sorting mechanisms for attraction are status and stimulation – and she’s in a club environment, I could see how being the cock-of-the-walk, never-let-her-talk, kind of guy might work.
If you want someone who’s main way of deciding what is important is to look around at what her immediate social group likes and to sort for what is the most stimulating in THAT moment, then go for it.
But the real problem for me is, these Gurus tend to postulate all sorts of evolutionary psychology theories that have no foundation in fact, or have been massively distorted from what the alleged “science” is actually teaching.
For example, the idea that being “cocky and funny” is somehow going to trigger her genetic mating instinct is really laughable. So our cavemen ancestors liked to “bust” on their “dates”, make fun of how their supra-orbital brow ridges bobbed up and down when they talked?
Is that what science really tells us? Or is it an attempt to draw on some authority to lend credence to an idea that is really pretty incomplete at best, and idiotic at the worst.
The fact is science can’t tell us anything about the mating rituals of our pre-human ancestors. We know how they had sex, just like we do! But what behaviors they engaged in to select mates are PURE speculation, drawn from observing modern animals.
It strikes me as very sloppy thinking to make the leap from animals to humans, or from pre-humans whom we can’t observe, to modern Homo Sapiens. It’s all speculative.
Moreover, it totally ignores the influence of culture, social programming, and, most importantly, a woman’s own unique desires, preferences, fantasies, etc.
It shrinks it down to a “one size” fits all formula that requires little or no thinking and little or NO recognition of the unique woman in front of you.
That to me, is pretty “butt plug” dumb.
Not to say that being funny or cocky isn’t useful to get attention and get past an initial “is this another boring guy” screen. But that’s about really all it does.
Another interesting issue is: most of these guys, whom I’ve met by the way, are very good looking. I would include in that Mr. EP, Mr. EM, Mr. JS , Mr. OC and a few others as well. Sorry but I won’t give their real or pen names but you have met all of them and can tell who they are, Cliff.
So to those guys on your list reading this who are not 9’s or 10’s on the looks scale: can you really trust the advice of a guy who is 2-3 points higher on the looks scale than you? Does he REALLY understand what YOU have to go through to attract the quality and caliber of women YOU want?
Shit, I’m old and UGLY and I get hot chicks. Many of my students fit the same description, although maybe not as old as I am. If we can do it, you DEFINITELY can do it. But to take the advice of a guy who is so hot, women start creaming themselves looking at him? I dunno….
Now, the other thing is, these guys seem to think it is actually “weak” to get a woman talking and listen to what she has to say. Somehow it isn’t “Alpha” to learn from a woman what actually moves and motivates her!
Whereas, I and thousands of students can tell you, if you get a woman talking in the right direction, about the right topics, the act of talking re-vivifies the feelings you want her to experience with you. You can then spot the responses, link them to you, amplify them and POOF: you are laid.
It’s just idiotic to ignore a woman’s own inner structures and processes that produce HER lust, HER attraction, HER arousal, HER connection, HER desire.
I’m sorry to name call, but it is MILITANT stupidity, masquerading as being ALPHA.
Maybe Alpha stands for Assholes Losing Plenty of High-Quality Ass.
Clifford: So, if I can summarize, being funny (whether “cocky and funny” or just humorous) along with paying attention to the individual specifics relating to the woman you are talking to is what you are recommending. This makes sense to me.
Ross: Beyond that Cliff, the Alpha approach basically says, “Make it ALL about YOU.” At some point, when you’ve made a HUGE impact, shown value, demonstrated personality, created “attraction” then and ONLY then you can feign a bit of interest in her to make HER feel she is of sufficient value to be with you.
But to actually listen to her responses, glean what moves her and USE it, is just ignored. At the end of an “Alpha” seduction, do you even know anything at all about the person laying in the bed next to you, or has she basically just been another cardboard cut-out audience in YOUR movie?
For sure, that approach will work, for SOME women. But does it produce the kind of connections you want for more than a one night stand?
Clifford: I am not really sure there is a question in the following, but I have noticed that there is a very interesting dynamic that goes on in the community when it comes to the looks of the person giving advice. You, based on what you say above and other things you have said to me, fall into the category of guys who severely discount advice from those who are good looking. On the other hand, there are “normal” to good looking guys who just don’t buy advice from guys who aren’t somewhat attractive. Personally, I think if you set any frame strong enough, you can get women (maybe not all of them, but a good number) to follow along and buy into your reality. For this reason, understanding the attitudes that very successful guys develop can be extremely useful regardless of whether they got their attitudes in whole or in part from the advantages they reap by being good looking. In fact, if they weren’t good looking, they might never have found out the behaviours and attitudes that they developed. What are your thoughts on this?
Ross: My thoughts are that good looking guys (whatever that means) don’t have to work as hard to create attraction and they don’t need to work as hard to overcome a woman’s initial “not my type” knee-jerk, auto-pilot response. They can get away with doing a lot less. Basically, they can create some comfort, display their own personality, and then make their move. If they know how to handle the last minute stuff LOTS of women throw out, they will get laid, and often.
But you know, it’s one thing to have a great-looking guy as a guest speaker or guest trainer and spew on about how he gets lots of babes, when he’s young, looks like a male model, etc., etc.
How does that practically translate into being of real-world help to the fat, balding guy, or the guy in his mid-30’s who hasn’t dated in 10 years and has no confidence, etc., etc? If you look like Johnny Depp, are in your early thirties, dress super-cool and have access to top clubs and bars, are you really in a position to even understand most of the experience of most males, much less advise them on what will work for THEM?
Not just lecture on what works for him, the teacher. But what will work FOR HIS AUDIENCE. This is the crucial question.
God bless anyone who has found something that works for them. The question is the applicability across the board, NOT whether any individual teacher/Guru can walk his talk.
Now, I have literally hundreds of testimonials from guys all over the world who run the full gamut of looks, age, social status, etc. You can go to the website and see some of the testimonials from, I’m sorry, what look like “total geeks”.
Can a guy who looks like THAT really pull off the Alpha Male/demonstrate your personality/dominate the conversation bullshit?
Clifford: I remember listening to your Advanced Masters Series Tapes and you started them off talking about only being concerned with what works, with what gets results. You gave the example about your car being stuck in the desert, and how you don’t want someone to hug you, you want to get the car started. Have you seen much that you feel is useful from the other “gurus” out there? Is there anyone in the PUA scene you actually respect or admire?
Ross: I think Mystery does a lot of stuff that is original, at least in the first stage of what he teaches, and I have ZERO doubt that his stuff totally works: FOR HIM. If you’ve got that kind of personality that is totally willing to talk, talk, talk and dominate the conversation from start to finish and make it almost all about you, and if you are in his rough looks league, LEARN HIS STUFF.
He’s worked out a lot of the actual social dynamics in a club situation going after the hottest girl there and you probably DO have to do a lot of that prancing and dancing to get her. Personally, I’d find it utterly exhausting and no fun either; I like listening to women, I enjoy getting into their minds, etc.
But that aside, he HAS done so much stuff in clubs, he knows the little pieces; when to move her from her friends, how to get around asshole guys.
He just knows that stuff. I don’t do clubs so I don’t bother with it and don’t know those finer details.
I don’t buy into his evolutionary psychology model (nor DYD‘s, nor any one else’s). I don’t buy that our fear of approaching women is hard-wired and that it will always be there; I KNOW that is not the case. I can show you student after student that proves it, full stop.
But he’s got some good stuff, no doubt. And he’s a riveting speaker and very funny too.
I think Gunwitch also has a model that works, for him, in the situation he finds himself in, and I think he also has a genuine devotion to helping guys. I don’t think he is in it for the money, he wants to help.
He brings some of his own unique situation into his teaching, with regard to fighting and that sort of stuff, but that’s ok. I think his sexual state stuff, basically what you radiate and do non-verbally, once you have rapport, is fine, but it’s not nearly as good as what you would learn from Kim and Tom about state shifting. But it’s good for what it is and you will get your money’s worth from Gun’s ebook, so if you ARE looking for an ebook, you should probably buy that one. I’ve read it and enjoyed it.
Clifford: Perhaps you can elaborate on how what you teach deals with the extra effort that is needed for “a guy who looks like that” to create attraction compared to the Johnny Depp types.
Ross: That’s easy; and by the way, some Johnny Depp guys have worked out some difficult stuff and deserve credit. I’ll come right out and say it: most teachers in the community are either copying me, or copying Mystery or copying both of us in some combination, with perhaps a few minor things thrown in. Gunwitch is an exception; I don’t think he is doing much copying of anyone. I’d also throw him into the “original” category.
As for extra effort: let’s reduce it down to raw, physical sensations.
If you are so good looking that when you walk into a room, at least a minority of the women, look, take in a big inhale, and get butterflies in their tummy or their hearts beat faster or their clits tingle: if, just by looking, they feel, on the inside, whatever unique body sensations tell them, THEY ARE ATTRACTED TO YOU, then half the fight is over just by you stepping into the ring, ok?
This isn’t rocket science.
If you don’t have the looks that cause her to feel those signals in her body (what I call Signal Recognition), how are you going to create those signals and get her to link them, on some level, to you and to taking action with you?
Now, I don’t knock acting and being confident. Cliff, you know full well I have been teaching that for years, yes?
I just think it is going too far to push into invalidating the woman, making her feel insecure, and also making the transaction being almost all about her listening to YOU. It’s too much work and ignores very important, useful things.
My argument is, that will be enough for a great looking guy to push a woman who is already up on the fence, due to his looks, over into his bed.
It won’t be enough for a guy who isn’t good looking, her type, in her preferred age range, or otherwise what she is used to having “trip her trigger”.
I say, that every woman, 16 to 60, has her own set of internal processes, structures and feeling flows that on some level, let her know, she’s hot and willing.
I don’t care how they got there, but the issue is: how to bring them to the surface, get them linked to you, and have her act on them.
My solution is to use language: language is a strong key to getting women’s right brain/emotions activated. Anyone who ignores this is ignoring that women process language differently and have different and far stronger emotional responses than we guys.
Just look at romance novels: they outsell every other form of literature, fiction or non-fiction, COMBINED. We would puke at this stuff. Women snap it up.
Or take the famous Spanish poet, Pablo Neruda. He’s old, ugly, and women off all ages MOB him and literally throw their panties at him.
Now, I’m not saying you have to be a novel writer or a romantic poet; far from it.
But you do need to learn how to get women talking about what MOVES them: where do they find their escape, indulgence, adventure, sense of connection?
What it’s like when they find a more primitive side of themselves looking out through their eyes, stirring to awaken, and the flow of feeling that lets them know:mmm…I want to be someone else for a while.
Get it? These themes “prime the pump” and awaken those sleeping structures in a woman’s psyche that process lust, desire, wild abandon, throwing out the rules, etc. So if you know how to smoothly introduce these themes in a conversation and know how to spot and use her responses, you can trigger incredibly powerful feelings very quickly in a way that seems perfectly natural. Just as important, you can gain incredible information about how she thinks, and what REALLY moves her into these powerful feeling states: what uniquely moves HER, as an individual. She’ll fucking hand you her emotional road-map on a platter, verbally and non-verbally if you do this right.
The key is: GET HER TALKING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION and use her words and non-verbal responses to progressively gather more information about what moves her, progressively get stronger feelings, until she is ready to be closed.
To do that, you HAVE to get her talking. You can’t be spending 30 minutes doing your own canned routines to demonstrate your exciting life, your “higher value,” etc. YOU HAVE TO GATHER INFORMATION ABOUT HER. You can’t do that if you are the one doing 80% of the talking.
Just by knowing how to introduce these topics and themes, you are already demonstrating value by virtue of the fact that you are showing you understand how women think. Not enough to get laid, but enough to set you apart already as being different.
Does this make sense?
At the end of doing a Speed Seduction® you really know who the woman is and what moves her in ways her best friends don’t, because you’ve got her talking about the right things and learned to observe and listened.
Clifford: How is Speed Seduction today different than what you first introduced in 1993?
Ross: There is FAR less emphasis on the canned, memorized “speeches/patterns”.
Do not get me wrong. There is still a role for memorization. It is just we more emphasize introducing conversational themes, asking questions that get women talking in the right direction, and then skillfully using her own “personal trance words” and her own non-verbal responses, fed back to her.
The “canned” stuff is now used to “prime the pump” and stimulate her imagination, to get her talking, if she is not responsive right away.
We have also MASSIVELY improved the self-confidence or “inner game” stuff. All the older stuff is still great, but the newer work is far, FAR more effective. We can take guys deeply stuck and truly get them going.
I am also far more adept at using and teaching the use of “internal energy” and aligning it with the proper beliefs, so that the skills are conducted through these, rather than being pushed through a wall of fear.
That is to say, you can have the right skills, but if you have to push them out THROUGH fear, they won’t work nearly as well.
If you can align the right internal energy, with supporting beliefs, then the skills don’t need to be pushed, even for a newbie. They will flow out much more organically and with far less mental effort and work.
Clifford: What would you say are the major breakthroughs that led you to what you are currently teaching? Who has been a big influence on your work, during this time?
Ross: First, foremost and as I have said openly, Kim and Tom of essential-skills.com have helped me profoundly in many, many ways, especially emphasizing the non-verbal aspects, such as rapport and anchoring. You will get more real-world NLP skills from 3 days with these guys than you will in 6 months in an NLP Prac or Master Prac program.
I have also learned massively from my own students who have come to my seminars or used my products or both: Dave Riker, John Vetterling, dEx, Vince Kelvin and a few others as well. I openly acknowledge and even welcome when a student has figured something out in a better way than I have or just shows huge mastery and I INVITE them to openly contribute.
Mark Whitwell, my Yoga teacher of the past year and a half has massively changed my life with the personal practice he taught me. I can’t say enough about his work; it is yoga WITHOUT gymnastics, muscular activity, or strain. It’s about the union of breath, body, and a strength that receives.http://www.heartofyoga.org GET HIS BOOK!
Shirleen Rodrigues: Shirleen has taught me enormous amounts about energetics, gathering info from a person’s field, and I can’t say enough about her work. Shirleen is a true gem in my life.
Clifford: What is the typical profile of the students who come to your seminars and buy your products? What are the common challenges they are facing?
Ross: Cliff, you have been to my events. The students range from 18 to the late 60’s, come from every economic background and occupation, every possible range of shapes, sizes and appearances, with a wide variance in their success or lack of success and experience with women, and they also come from all over the world.
There is no “type” but there IS a clustering or predominance of engineers, software, information technology people; about 30% or more fit this description. Oddly enough, and for reasons I am stumped to explain after 12 years of doing this, we also get a good proportion of military people. I can’t for the life of me explain that. Yates, my business partner and co-trainer is an ex-Air Force Major, but I don’t think that explains it. Maybe one of my military guys is on your list and will read this and write in to offer a clue. We also get a smattering of law-enforcement and even intelligence community folks, but I’ll leave that last one to your fertile imagination; suffice it to say if my detractors knew who I really had in my fan club they would shit in their pea-cocked pants.
Common challenges: being out of the game for years, due to being married or in a “real-hate-shun-ship” and now being stuck.
Having a girlfriend or two they accidentally attract, but having no program or process to repeat the success. Or not being able to step up to the caliber or quality of woman/women they want. MANY guys are in that category.
Being so afraid and socially impacted, they NEVER get women, beyond being “friends” and they are fed up with it.
Guys who already quite good, but want to do even better: what I call “edge junkies”. About 30% of the students fit in there.
Clifford: How relevant and useful is SS to the bar/club scene?
Ross: Ahhhh…hmmm. Well, you know, I think what people think and find possible depends on their beliefs. I’ve had guys who have never even bought a course explain to me how SS just CANNOT work in bars/clubs, but I think they either have not seen my work since 1997, and assume it has to be about only spouting memorized speeches, or they just don’t really get it or whatever.
I use SS in upscale restaurants that have bars attached to them. I don’t use it in “bar” only bars, because I don’t go to those places, but I have students who do so, quite successfully.
Speaking of which, remember when I visited last in Montreal? Do you remember I told you I was going to use my energy to make that one girl across the bar turn around and look at me, and at the exact moment I said, “Ok, I’m in her mind” she turned around?
There’s lots you can do, energetically, that I am also now teaching. So you don’t even need to speak to get attention, but it’s a more advanced skill to develop, takes patience, and is frankly somewhat more “iffy”. You still have to talk once they come over to you.
Anyway, SS isn’t about a special venue, but a guiding set of principles for knowing what to pay attention to, what to evoke, and what to use. If they can hear you at all, you can use it, ANYWHERE.
As for clubs: I don’t go to clubs. I’m 46 years old, don’t like drunk people, HATE loud noise and I want to be in bed by 1 AM.
But I have some students who use it in clubs: Vince Kelvin springs to mind. He’s got wicked SS skills in ANY venue or setting.
Clifford: What do you think of the “PUA” style of pick up that has evolved to handle these venues/locations?
Ross: It’s behavioral based, formulaic, and most importantly, totally ignores the step of evoking and gathering responses and information from the woman in front of you.
You run the same routines, SAME scripts, no matter WHO she might uniquely be.
There is NO effort to really learn about or understand what MOVES her. Such information is considered useless, even counter-seductive.
I agree with one aspect, and this applies to Mystery’s work: in a club, to reach a 10, who is surrounded by her friends and girlfriends, you probably do need to learn to disarm the obstacles. So that would be useful, indeed. Then I would proceed to use SS on her, once you have her isolated, which is what the more honest teachers admit they do anyway.
And sure: I agree confidence is attractive. The PUAs are right about that.
But can we prove it triggers some evolutionary/genetic mating instinct?
Are they really claiming that women are going to wet their pussies, feel their clits tingle and get PHYSICALLY TURNED ON by these PUA displays, because something in their genes kicks in and makes them want to fuck when a guy “busts” on them?!”
C’mon now. This shit is just silly.
The best you are doing with the PUA/cocky-funny stuff is getting past her “is this another boring guy” shield .
That ain’t enough to get her to “mate” with you unless you are also as good looking as most of these guys.
Clifford: What do you think of the students of yours who have since gone out on their own to teach their own methods and systems?
Ross: I just wish they would show SOME integrity and be honest enough to acknowledge how much they learned from me.
Not ONE of them will.
As you have seen in this interview, I have no problem acknowledging those who I learn from. I think it is fair to expect the same in return.
Along those lines, to be honest and fair, even though we have split, and are not on speaking terms, I do acknowledge Mark Cunningham as someone who definitely stimulated very interesting lines of thinking on my part.
It wasn’t so much specific things, but rather broad brush strokes of thought he painted in our collaboration that caused me to run out and experiment in my own way. I won’t discuss our split, but I do acknowledge Mark as someone I learned from and who was an influence in my thinking and who STRONGLY stimulated my creativity in many ways.
See? I can acknowledge my contributors. Why can’t these guys?
But what bugs me are the flat out liars. There is no way to be polite about it. Some of these guys are lying like crazy about who came up with what.
Let’s take one nasty, even mentally disturbed example: Mr. JS, wrote an ebook where, among other things, he talks about setting frames. He claims in public forums that HE taught me this stuff and that he was, and I quote, “a star” at my Speed Seduction seminars.
Now, Cliff, on my cats’ eyes, this guy was at my LA 99 seminar, where he learned this frame setting stuff from me, WORD FOR WORD. I think he might even be on the videos; I’d have to run and look.
Now, for him to take the material and not even acknowledge me is bad enough. But to lie in public forums and claim HE taught it to ME, crosses over into sheer malice. (BTW, this is one of the really good looking guys too; he flat out lies about THAT in his marketing material, saying he is average looking. It’s another blatant, no, make that OUTRAGEOUS lie.)
Look: I’ve had people write me and say I should just shut up about this stuff and not complain; that it makes me look like a whiner.
I say, if your model of the world says it is ok for people to steal your work and then lie about it and smear you, good on you.
My model is I don’t put up with that. Criticism, snipes, rivalry, sure.
But theft? No. You try having someone steal from you, then call YOU the thief and if YOU can put up with it. Until then, don’t expect me to. I won’t. Anyone who relies on their intellectual effort and property to earn their living will understand. No one else will.
Clifford: Have you picked up any really good non-SS seduction tips that you can share? I think your first book had a lot of this type of thing in it and I know that since then you’ve focused on the technology, which you’ve explained at length here. But given your stature and position in the community, you
must have come across some really interesting unrelated tricks/strategies
over the years (I still use your cunnilingus technique from the first book)
Based on my own experimenting, you can learn to do some incredibly powerful things with erotic touch in places women would not normally find intrusive or invasive or even recognize as being a “hot spot”.
In other words, you wouldn’t touch anywhere her “swim suit” covers.
I have video files of me making a woman border-line cum on stage by lightly massaging the back of her neck. Damn it, where are those?
I think this link still works:
The sound is not so great but you can clearly see her responding.
The palm and especially the THUMB work incredibly well, as will the small of the back. And scalp, once you get her alone, is devastating.
Damn, the thumb is sneaky. I’ve had women literally wet themselves in public, over a drink, because I lightly touched their thumb in the right way.
Try this. Take the index finger of your left hand. GENTLY, LIGHTLY, take the pad of your index finger and run it along the outside edge of your right thumb and then the pad of the thumb. It feels about as sensitive as the head of your cock. Same for women; it’s an analog to touching her clit.
I also definitely believe in energy, both in terms of transmitting emotion and also containing and transmitting information. There truly are some amazing things you can learn to do without uttering a word, but this gets into the realm of “magick/remote influence” which I teach separately. Let me, in the interest of consistency, state right here and now I do NOT claim it to be scientific in ANY sense. Just something you can observationally verify for yourself as workable, though not consistently. It IS erratic, but also beyond coincidence.
Just an example, there is a meditation/visualizing that I do that will cause women for 2-3 days afterwards to come up to me and INSIST they know me.
This isn’t about me changing my non-verbal cues; I know how to look at a stranger with that “Wow, I know you look” and make them talk to me that way.
I totally suppress that look, to make sure it isn’t a factor. And yet, when I do this, women will approach me and about half the time, not only THINK they know me, but INSIST they know me.
I remember doing this and then going to a yoga class. A stunning, hot blonde was on a mat behind me, and I couldn’t help looking at her whenever a pose would allow it.
After class, she began walking toward me. I thought, “fuck, I’m busted. She’s going to complain to me and the teacher about me staring at her! FUCK!”
Instead she insisted that my name was Phil, that I played drums for her and her friends when they would dance at lunch hour, at UC Berkeley, and she would not believe me at first when I said, no, I’m not.
That same week, I went to Vegas to visit a couple who are friends of mine, Richard and Heather. On the drive from the airport, I explained about my experiment. Richard poo-poo’ed it, but Heather just listened.
We arrived at the hotel and took the elevator to the concierge floor. As soon as I stepped out of the elevator, the woman behind the desk said, “Didn’t I just serve you here yesterday?”
Richard accused me of arranging it.
Again, for some reason, these things are not always duplicable and I wouldn’t recommend them for beginners. But I and my students have MANY such stories to tell.
Clifford: I want to thank you for taking so much time to explain about SS to those reading this.