Recently I was contacted by Aaron Sleazy, who submitted a post for Cliff’s List. I was struck by his method, which essentially involved him moving very quickly to getting physically intimate with women in night clubs, and wanted to find out more about his abilities and how he learned what he does. So here is an interview with Aaron Sleazy that I think you may find quite eye opening.
Clifford: You are based in Berlin.
Sleazy: That’s right. I moved to Berlin in early 2005. In between, I spent two years in London.
Clifford: Where are you from originally ?
Sleazy: I was born in Germany. I grew up in a small village and moved to Berlin in 2005.
Clifford: Have you tried your method in other countries ?
Sleazy: I have developed my style in London, and it works just as well in Berlin.
Clifford: I haven’t heard the best reports as far as the quality of the women in Berlin … how would you describe the women that you pursue ? Whom would you compare them to on average ?
Sleazy: Regarding the quality of women in Berlin, I am curious as who might have said something negative. After all, it is a very cosmopolitan city. If you don’t like German girls, then you don’t have to pursue them. There are plenty of girls of every nationality around, just as in London.
So far, I have had sex with women aged 16 to 36, of numerous nationalities: some very educated ones (including the daughter of a world-leading scientist teaching in Oxford); some more down-to-earth ones; some that were a bit on the slutty side; some that were pretty uptight; some that were very well off, owning their own flats and earning six-figures; and others that were broke and unemployed. There really is no pattern, except that they got me hard. I won’t tell you nonsense that they were all “SHB11s.” Some were indeed incredibly beautiful, others were just cute, but there was not a single one among them whom I had or would have had a problem being seen in public with.
Clifford: I had heard this from a few guys … it’s not that there aren’t attractive women in Germany, only that there seems to be a greater abundance of them in other countries. It’s like England: yes, there are attractive women there, but there are a lot of unattractive ones. Maybe a better example would be the difference I found when I went to the Ukraine earlier this year. I would walk into a shopping mall and think I had stumbled into a model convention. The ratio of hot women to average or unattractive was completely the opposite of what it is in Montreal: say 2 out of 10 will be hot here, but 8 out of 10 will be hot there.
Sleazy: Even if it’s really an 8 / 10 to 2 / 10 ratio, it’s still more than enough for me.
Clifford: I am very interested in learning more about how you got to where you are.
Sleazy: To give you a very rough timeline: I am 29. I accidentally discovered the community in 2005 (but independent of The Game). In 2006, I decided to take this seriously and put some effort into it. At that time, I was still a virgin, and had only made out with ten women or so. Admittedly, I somehow ended up in bed with four or five girls in 2005 and 2006, but was too clueless as to what to do. Even though I could easily have had sex with them, I was at a loss. With one, I made out for maybe three or four hours and thought, “Why isn’t this moving forward ?” The idea of escalation was completely foreign to me, and I thought sex would just happen. Probably those girls were more embarrassed than I was.
I didn’t feel I could talk about this issue with my friends, so I turned to the Internet again. In late 2006 I registered an account on mASF and also started to go out more regularly. The next months I spent pretty much desensitizing myself. After all, I was a pretty shy guy. Also, I am rather stubborn, and when I don’t like something I try to figure things out for myself. This is why I never took Mystery Method or Speed Seduction seriously. Those methods sounded too bizarre to me. Instead, it seemed to me that the fastest and most natural way to get a girl was a “raw form” of natural game: get her to notice you, get her attracted, get her horny, fuck her. The thought of spending hours on one girl or befriending her group (or any of the other commonly followed techniques) is completely ridiculous to me. Recently someone wrote, “Sleazy apparently did not get the memo that we aren’t in the Stone Age anymore,” and this sums it up fairly well.
I laid my first girl in the summer of 2007 and I turned her into my girlfriend. In late 2007 I broke up with her because I was too busy with academics (I did an MSc in London in 2007/08.) In early 2008, I finally found a way to manage the intense workload and thought I should finally try to figure out “this women thing.” From then on, my progress is very well documented. I have definitely contributed some of the most eccentric field and lay reports in the history of mASF. By the way, my book Sleazy Stories is about my progress in 2008, and focuses on the attitude I cultivated and my exploits in field.
Clifford: It’s remarkable that you got to where you are in only three years. How you went from shy to where you are now is fascinating. I have heard from a few other guys who also do this almost immediate escalation thing over the years, and most of us have had the experience of something like this happening once in awhile, but few get it down in such a regular, consistent fashion. Tell us more about how you got where you are.
Sleazy: I think in one aspect my development is different from almost any other guy in the community. In my teens, I used to meditate a lot. This gave me an incredibly calm mind. In fact, I can “switch off” the inner monologue or any kind of thought at will. All I need is to give myself an impulse, and my mind clears. It’s an amazing ability that has served me well in many areas, not only in pick up. I believe that this was the foundation for everything I have achieved.
Clifford: Can you go into detail on how that was when you started, and how it progressed to give you the abilities and results you now have ?
Sleazy: I started practicing Zen meditation at around the age of 17. A work colleague introduced me to it. At first I did about five minutes a day, which already felt like quite an effort. Sitting in the lotus position makes it even more difficult, but I wanted to do it right from the beginning.
Meditating is something you grow to find more and more useful as you practice it. I haven’t talked with a lot of guys about it, so I don’t really know whether my experiences are typical, but I had a very restless mind as a teenager. There always seemed to be half a dozen thoughts simultaneously bumping around in my head. By forcing myself to concentrate on a blank wall, this slowly got better. Then I increased the time spent meditating, and did it up to 45 or even 60 minutes a day. These days, I barely meditate anymore because I can literally clear my mind at will. Obviously, this is tremendously useful for pick up.
To chart the progress of the next one to two years roughly: my mind got calmer and calmer. The negative thoughts that used to creep into my mind from time to time stopped. I also grew happier because of that, and eventually I cared less and less about a lot of things, such as peer pressure or social norms or bad news.
By the time I turned 20 I had developed the aura of a very confident person, even though I wasn’t one yet. Strangely enough, by that time people started to assume that I was amazing with women. There were times when random guys asked me questions, and when I truthfully told them that I had no idea, they assumed I was an even bigger player than they had thought.
Clifford: One thing which I would like you to describe in more detail is the whole process of transformation of your confidence. You’ve described yourself as having been “shy” and “not yet” a very confident person. Generally, something like this doesn’t happen overnight, but there probably were several landmarks along the way from when you were not confident to where you are now. What “aha’s” or breakthroughs did you have ? What would you suggest to someone else to help them develop this kind of confidence ?
Sleazy: You are right. Of course I did not develop confidence overnight. There were years between starting to practice Zen meditation and picking up girls. However, the “landmark” idea is one I question. I have little doubt that Zen meditation has played a major role in making me much more confident, but it was a very slow process. It was so slow that I did not really notice it happening. But then I increasingly found myself just shrugging things off that would have thrown me off-guard some months prior.
You can have similar experiences when learning a foreign language. You may study for years and be frustrated because you are still not at the level of a native speaker. But then, one day, you pick-up a book in the library and it suddenly strikes you that you don’t need to resort to a dictionary anymore. It’s thus less a question of landmarks but of realising that you have come a really long way.
Also, and this is partly related: I don’t have a real sense of shame. I have absolutely no problem pulling my cock out and putting it into a girl’s hand. I have repeatedly received hand jobs in dark corners or on the dance floor, but the first time two girls decided to whack me simultaneously next to the bar, I felt a bit lost. (The field report is located here.)
I was not always like this, though. My parents are Christian, and sex or nudity were taboo at home. However, I “accidentally” ended up live modeling. A friend of mine casually asked me whether I’d be interested. I agreed, thinking he was joking, but he wasn’t. I was too embarrassed to refuse his request then, so I showed up. The experience was not that bad, and after some time I enjoyed it. Having a dozen girls sitting in a circle around you and drawing you is an interesting experience. It can also do wonders for your ego.
Clifford: That seems, on the one hand, to hint that you are better looking than you said, since you were asked to model. Personally, I know the objections that the average guy has to advice from good-looking men, who they feel have a different experience. But I think that your attitude is the critical factor. And I think that good-looking men (or men who, for one reason or another, have a different experience from the average guy) also have a lot to teach us. If you believe you are that good looking (no matter what you look like) and you act that way (without being an egotistical jerk, of course) women will fall into your reality.
Sleazy: The community has a hypocritical relation to looks. On the one hand, there are a lot of commercial people saying that “looks don’t matter at all” because they want to sell a product and don’t want to lose potential customers. But on the other hand, if you experience an unusual level of success, then people try to put you down and use looks as an underhanded compliment to discredit you and your skills, no matter how apparent they are. A prominent example is Zan Perrion, of whom some have said that he should not give advice because he is “too good looking.” Obviously, looks are part of the equation, and anyone who ever went out to a club or to any public gathering should be able to confirm it. But looks alone won’t get you laid.
But to answer your question clearly: in terms of looks, I am above average. I am tall and I have a very slim body some consider beautiful. One of my female friends, incidentally a student of archeology, once said that my face could have been taken from an antique Roman statue. Some girls clearly view me as very attractive. Others may have a different opinion. But even the girls that are into me from the get-go don’t seduce themselves for me.
Live modeling is not really about looks, but more about having a certain kind of physiology, because you will mostly pose in front of students of the fine arts. I was picked because I was very skinny and yet toned. Old men and women also seem to be in demand. I have been told that those provide quite a challenge to put on canvas or paper.
Clifford: But I would also like to go into this loss of shame you experienced. I am a bit lost as to how you would be “too embarrassed to refuse” the request to pose nude. I would think that refusing would be a lot less embarrassing than being nude in a classroom filled with women.
Sleazy: Oh, I see. One of the things my father preached was always to keep my promises. When that artist friend of mine asked me to model for his class, I thought he was just joking, so I (jokingly) agreed. But then I received a call from the woman in charge of that particular class, telling me that one of their models got sick and that they needed me to fill in. Well, I really do have strong ethical standards, and by that time, I was already quite confident and a bit eccentric, which was why that friend had asked me in the first place. Still, posing nude was something I had considered quite far out of my reality, and it took me some time to get used to it. At first I felt exposed, but it was a strangely fascinating experience nonetheless. Eventually I got used to it, and some weeks later I was really enjoying it.
Clifford: Ok, it seems that the modeling episode was more an escalation point in the development of your confident attitude (since you say you were already quite confident.) In other words, that the modeling helped further break through your comfort zones more than create a major shift in your going from not being confident to being confident. I’d like you to describe the process of evolution that you underwent from a person brought up in a conservative home to someone with no shame (which mainly seems the result of having done this nude modeling, but I tend to think there is probably a bit more to it, because it’s one thing to be a nude model and another to get sexual the way you describe.)
Sleazy: That’s true. At 25, I moved away from home. In Berlin I really didn’t know many people, so I was forced to become a bit more open minded. I would have felt stupid sitting at home considering all the opportunities the city provided.
Regarding my lack of shame and restraint, there was one particular experience. This is a quote from an earlier draft of Sleazy Stories:
In my last semester in Berlin, I won a scholarship to study for a year in London. I postponed sitting my final exams and took up this offer. However, I had to finish a couple of research papers in the summer of 2006 and barely went out. I managed to finished all those papers on time and had one week left in Berlin. It then struck me that I was free to do whatever I wanted to do because there could be no repercussions at all. With this thought in mind I went out. That night I fingered a girl on the dance floor.
It took me some more months to realise that I could live every day like this because there never really were any repercussions.
This episode was arguably one of the most important experiences I had in terms of pick up, and it really “just happened.” At first there was this girl dancing in my vicinity. I found her very attractive but was hesitant to approach her. I was afraid of what my friends might think, but then I just did it. She escalated a bit herself, and one thing led to another. It was one step at a time. Of course, I was a bit afraid of what I was getting into, but as soon as I realized that she was comfortable with it, many of my concerns dissipated. It certainly was not the case that I walked up to her and fingered her … something I may do nowadays … but instead, it was a fairly long interaction. It could easily have culminated in sex at my place or her place, or even in bathroom sex, but this was out of my reality at that time.
Clifford: Ok, you went out with the mindset that there are no repercussions to whatever you would do, but it still is a leap to go out with an idea in your mind and then finger a girl on the dance floor. Can you go into more detail about how you changed, what specifically went on in your head as you got in touch with your body, as well as anything else you can remember that occurred during your transformation ?
Sleazy: I think what first enabled me to get in touch with my body was, in conjunction with Zen meditation, practicing martial arts. This allowed me to become comfortable in my own skin. Later on, I did other sports and really enjoyed them. I wasn’t too bad at them either. You have to know that, as a kid, I used to be a bit overweight. In Physical Education, I usually was one of the last to be picked. This is probably where some of my problems stemmed from. Therefore I never really gave team sports a try, but then I found other kinds of sports that appealed to me.
Looking back, it really seems as if things just fell into place, e.g. meditating calmed my mind, sports made me like my body, nude modeling forced me to really get in touch with my naked body, and finally, moving to a foreign city forced me to leave the house and learn to become social.
Clifford: There seems to be a thread of getting more and more comfortable with your body as a part of your development. Whereas most guys would have spent more time working on their thinking (by studying and reading materials such as my list, mASF, or the various products) you have probably gotten a bigger result by breaking down your own physical comfort zones.
Sleazy: This is a great observation. In fact, the approach most guys seem to have toward pick up is completely screwed. You can’t really fix your problems just by reading about those issues. A more serious concern, however, is that many guys don’t seem to have a clear idea of how to learn anything, so at first they read materials indiscriminately, not making use of their sense of judgement at all. And then they might get the idea that a “boot camp” would help them. Unfortunately, even instructors from the well-known companies make so many mistakes that they can’t even serve as positive examples. The only thing it will change is the balance of your account. There are no short cuts, and it really takes quite an effort. Furthermore, pick up is about you and about finding out who you really are.
Clifford: Your last sentence there is very telling. For example, the current method one of the major pick up companies uses is to try and get the student in touch with who he is, and then go out and approach from that perspective rather than follow any routines or tactics.
Sleazy: The idea probably sounds great on paper, but I doubt you can fix in one weekend what people have neglected for years. Also, considering the extent to which the instructors of pick up companies stick to their “methods,” I doubt they are effective at teaching this concept. Boot camps seem to put people under a lot of pressure, but you need the exact opposite to get in touch with yourself.
Clifford: My experience has been that some guys can get “fixed” in a weekend, but for most it’s a long, ongoing process. Many will get pumped up over the course of a high-energy boot camp, only to lose that spark over the next few weeks as life returns to normal.
I guess the only question is, what suggestions would you have for guys to help them find out who they really are ? Can you elaborate a bit on how you found out who you really are ? It may seem like I am asking the same thing I asked before, but there is an important distinction between things like getting comfortable with your body and the effects that you had from practicing Zen meditation, and getting to the sense you have now about who you are overall.
Sleazy: Of course, “who you really are” is often the result of many random events. It is hard to dispute that our environment shapes us to vast extents. Thus, while many of our preferences are not due to active choices of our own, they nonetheless become so ingrained that you can’t really change them anymore. To give a more concrete example: if you happen to like indie rock music for whatever reason, then go to places where you can hear this kind of music, and don’t force yourself to got to mainstream venues. Whenever I walk past such clubs it seems to me that a sizable number of people hanging out in front and queuing don’t really want to be there, but only follow the herd. They are all just generics.
In fact, great examples of this problem are music and fashion. In both areas, you have a huge mainstream many people just follow. They neither question their behaviour nor think about their “taste” in music. Instead they just listen to whatever their friends are listening to, or wear what their friends are wearing. Basically they all look the same, and all listen to the same music. But you could be so different if you only tried. You could easily become unique. With only a small amount of motivation, you can discover so much more, and find out what you really like. It doesn’t even take a huge investment. For instance, see some unknown bands and try to be open to the experience ! I have listened to virtually unknown bands that turned out to be truly amazing. Maybe they’ll never get a record deal, and maybe those guys will be back to their former jobs … if they ever had any … in a few months, but their enthusiasm on the stage, which is due to the fact that they really love what they are doing, will affect you.
Fashion is a very similar topic. Of course you could buy clothes in malls or, if you grew up with a silver spoon in your mouth, in exquisite designer boutiques. But look at what people are really wearing ! Go to a fetish night, a burlesque event, a goth club: people don’t all just buy what other people have designed for them. Some tailor their own clothes, others think of combinations that are truly inspiring. Others browse thrift stores and dig up real treasures for little money. You can get inspiration literally everywhere. All you have to do is go through the world with open eyes. It’s as simple as hanging out in gay clubs every once in awhile, or reading blogs about edgy street fashion. There really is no excuse for wearing khakis.
Clifford: I would like to know more about the follow up to the fast seduction process, as it definitely seems like your speciality. How often do you see the girls you meet more than once ?
Sleazy: This highly depends. Virtually since my first successes with pick up, I have been in some kind of relationship. In London I once had four or five girls simultaneously, which really was unsustainable. My preference is to have one girl to hang out with whom I really like, kind of like a regular girlfriend. But in addition to that, I like the occasional adventure on the side.
Some girls literally just use me for sex. They only want to get off and that’s it. This feeling can of course be mutual. But I got fairly competent at establishing relationships. With some it’s practically impossible because they are tourists. Then there is the fraction that are cheating on their boyfriends or husbands. Other than that, I am pretty sure I could see most of them again if I just followed up with them.
Clifford: I definitely got that you don’t “date” in the traditional sense, so what exactly do you do when you want to see them again ? What are your thoughts on relationships and girlfriends ?
Sleazy: Obviously, since the vast majority of my lays happen extremely fast, I often have to resort to the post-coital phase to build a solid connection. This really is a make-or-break point. Some girls don’t want to get close to you, so they will be extremely careful not to give in fully. Other times, you may not want to give her the impression that the encounter was more than just a physical thing, so you act more distant. But if I think I might really like the girl, then I use the mutual feeling of post-coital bliss to bond with her on more than the physical level. Just talk to her as if she is already your girlfriend and enjoy the moment with her. You two cuddle, talk about whatever comes into your mind, fuck again, and so on and so forth. This works in enough cases. In fact, time-wise I could not even keep all the girls around that would want to be kept around, and the standard way my less serious relationships end is because I literally forget to call them.
The ideal case when it comes to relationships, though, is when you just really hit it off with her and think you have known her all your life, and on top of that you two are really hot for each other. Those cases are rare, though, and those are usually the ones I want to keep around. I am currently involved with a girl like that.
Clifford: What about threesomes and moresomes ? Is that something that you cultivate or do from time to time ?
Sleazy: Threesomes are an interesting topic. Last year I had a bisexual “fuck buddy.” She was open to the idea of letting me pull a second girl whom we could then enjoy together. But then it struck me that I did not really want to do this. I only wanted to have a threesome because it was something you had to do as a “pick up artist.” It’s a bit of a cliché, really. I have never worked on that area of my game because the desire just is not there. Of course, should I run into two girls that simultaneously get so hot for me that I could pull them both into the bathroom I may be up for it. Usually, though, I prefer the explosive sexuality that comes from pulling a girl quickly in a club, or the intimacy that comes when you get to know a woman better. So far I have not figured out where threesomes would fit into that scheme.
Clifford: What about meeting women outside of the clubs ? I didn’t get the impression that you meet women too often outside the club environment, is that correct ?
Sleazy: That is correct. However, it is not true that I generally stay away from meeting girls during the day or through my social circle. The simple reason is that those scenarios don’t give me the same rush I get when picking up women in clubs. However, last week I have had a fairly interesting “day 2.” Our previous interaction lasted five minutes, and then I took her number. I called her two or three days later and we met up. I ran a toned down version of my usual physical game, and after about one hour in the park we had sex in a public toilet. Personally, I believe that what I have done once I can do again, so I may work on setting up more “dates” after short interactions in the future. Maybe I’ll even give online game a try. However, I have not yet found a way to make social circle game work for me. It’s just too boring.
Clifford: The part of the LR you submitted to (my list) that I find is a little thin is the specifics of how it goes from eye contact to what is said, and then to the next steps. It seems that you don’t really say anything to them, and just step into a sexual comfort zone with them. But it happens so quickly that it’s not clear what actually happens from the first second to the point where you are “in,” and I’d definitely like to know more about that. I feel there’s much to go into detail on. It will be minutia in a way, but it’s the critical elements of deciphering what is happening. I think that there are a lot of very subtle and, for most people, imperceptible things happening. For example, what do you remember about why you chose that girl to go up to in the first place ? What subtle signs do you either look for or sense that tell you to give this girl a try ? In particular, how has that sense evolved from when you first started doing this ?
Sleazy: First of all, I don’t really operate in the community paradigm of “doing approaches.” When I go to a club it is because I really want to go there due to the music they play or the atmosphere of the venue. Then I immerse myself in that atmosphere. For instance, I may be dancing, completely unaware of what is happening around me, but when I see a girl I find attractive for whatever reason, I may just grab her hand and spin her around. Depending on her reaction, I may or may not continue with her. Sometimes I just want to dance, though, and don’t really follow up, even though it is clear to me that she would want me to.
At other times I am more calculating. I may walk around the venue and react to the girls I see. There are so many subtle things the vast majority of guys seem to be completely unaware of. To give you one example: many seem to believe that you can approach a girl any time and get a positive reaction provided your approach is good. In club settings, things don’t really work this way. You have to factor in where the girl is at. She may really dig you, but if she has just arrived you can’t swoop her up. Before she is ready to be approached, she has to get used to the venue. After all, clubs are like a parallel world. There is no real sense of time, and there is no real sense of consequence. The latter, though, is something I firmly believe, and it also handily explains why I am able to pull off the fairly eccentric things I do.
Based on her physiology you can literally see, with enough experience, whether she is open or not to an approach. On the other hand, I have seen a lot of community guys just going in. With some perception they would have known before the approach that they would “crash and burn.” But had they waited maybe fifteen more minutes, they would have stood a much better chance. Of course, this is not something you can develop in a couple of weeks. It’s something that takes a very long time. In my case, it took me a couple of years, but now I can literally “read” a room and spot the women that would be most open to an approach. I could bother with the others, but if you want to be efficient at pick up then you better try to pick the best possible targets.
But let’s talk about that particular approach: I chose her because I found her very attractive. Also, she was standing in a somewhat detached way. Maybe she was with the people that stood near her, but she was not fully part of that circle anymore. It was obvious to me that she was interested in meeting new people, or that she at least would appreciate a distraction. Thus I went after her.
Clifford: It seems that you have two main modes: the unconscious one and the more conscious one. I’d like to know more about the conscious one, in particular, how you were before, and the process that you went through to be able to “read a room.” What little things do you now pick up on that you didn’t previously (or that you now see differently based on experience ?)
Sleazy: Mostly I do not bother “reading the room,” but instead, have fun on my own. You should know that I normally only go to clubs I really like going to because of their atmosphere. Some really give you the impression that you are entering a different world, and when I find a girl attractive, I just go after her.
By the way, I want to make it clear that I do not drink alcohol, nor do I take drugs. But some people have told me that the vibe I project is too elated to be natural. In fact, people often assume I am on Ecstasy, coke, or MDMA. An amusing corollary is that occasionally girls seem to rationalize my sometimes overly aggressive escalations with my allegedly drug- induced state. One girl even said it was impossible for someone to be this happy without having taken anything.
Clifford: Well, your description is one of an exceptionally happy state, well beyond a generally happy person.
Sleazy: I think one of the main reasons why people get the impression that I am an unusually carefree and happy person is because I don’t restrain myself. When I feel like laughing, I simply laugh out loud, even if it is in public and among complete strangers. People so often try to conform to what they believe society’s standards are, but in the end, they are only harming themselves. I certainly don’t condone breaking the law, but if you listen to a great piece of music on your iPod and feel like singing along, then just sing along. It really doesn’t matter, but it probably will make you feel so much better.
On a related note, I have recently learned that a major pick-up company apparently teaches something that is similar on the surface. In London I ran into one of their followers, who told me that he “unstifles” himself frequently by jumping up and down or shouting battle cries. But this is just another example that shows how misguided the pick up mainstream is. You don’t force yourself to do something stupid to “unstifle” yourself, but instead you express yourself because it is something you really want to do in the moment. It may look similar, but the difference is that in one case you have a good chance of being perceived as an intriguing character, whereas in the other, everybody can tell that you are a try-hard. You can’t fake being at ease with yourself and the world.
Clifford: What small things do you look for or do differently that you’ve learned from experience ? And what do you notice or do that might be different from when you started ? I am focusing on what you have picked up through trial and error and experience. What do you notice now when you “read a room” that you didn’t previously ? What do you look for, or what gets your attention ?
Sleazy: Pick up is not an exact science. Club game in particular is much more like a sport. You reach the level of unconscious competence at some point, which of course frees up a lot of mental energy to focus on other elements. For instance, a self-conscious guy walks around thinking, “Now, what might be the best way to hold that bottle so as not to look insecure ?” (I wish I was joking, but this is sadly the reality.) Then his mind turns to the question of whether he is wearing the right shirt, and any other random issue keeps occupying him. He will therefore be too focused on himself to notice subtle hints girls give him.
However, those subtle hints are not really that subtle, provided you have the mental energy to process them. It’s as simple as the way she smiles or how long she holds eye contact with you, or how she carries her body. When watching a movie, you probably have no problem at all with discerning who the confident people are, but in a club, most guys fail at this task except in the most blatant cases.
I don’t really look for things. Primarily, I prefer to immerse myself in the atmosphere. Then I may spin a couple of girls around just for fun and escalate based on situational cues. The questions you are asking seem to be influenced by the old sequential and nerdy community model of a linear process that is claimed to work on any girl. But you can’t seduce every girl you want.
Women quickly decide whether they want to fuck you or not, thus your only two questions should be:
1) Is she interested ?
2) What are her logistics ?
The community already knows probably everything there is to know about “indications of interest,” and I don’t believe I have anything to add. I think I just notice them quicker than most. But this is something that comes with practice. I have collected so many reference experiences that I just know what I have to do. A good analogy is chess. I have once read that one of the main differences between a grand master and an amateur is that the former has seen tens of thousands more positions on the board. Therefore he does not have to spend a lot of time thinking about them. On the other hand, the amateur spends many minutes thinking on a position the grand master can assess in the blink of an eye.
Pick up really is similar. This became obvious when I noticed how other guys are literally unable to see all the indications of interest they are getting. Instead of escalating, they keep talking. Sadly, this is something you can even see in the in-field videos of the big pick-up companies. Very recently, I watched a clip on YouTube in which an RSD instructor demonstrates a pick up, a so-called “number-close,” but the girl was literally begging for his cock. He completely failed at leading her, and after two minutes she got bored and offered him her number. I can only shake my head when I see such things. The amount of incompetence on display in commercial products is frequently beyond belief.
Clifford: You remind me of a charity event I was at about a month ago. This was a huge and extremely successful party, and there were a lot of very attractive women there. I knew quite a few people including one very attractive young lady who at one point during the evening remarked how “This was a great event for men.” She could see how anxious the women were to meet guys that evening. Of course, while I could see some of that, it was dramatically more clear to her than it was to me. I think most guys do miss the signs, exactly as you state.
So what tells you “no” and what tells you “yes ?” I know you’ve answered some of this already, but I gather that you will have more to say as you think about different times when you went out (i.e. last week you saw this, but two weeks ago something else stood out, etc.)
Sleazy: I get the impression that the raster you are applying is too rigid. It’s much more about the clear indications of interest. The subtle things I pick up on may allow me to save some time, but it’s really not what is defining my game, and it is hardly what makes me successful. In the end it does not really matter whether I get the girl to suck me off in the toilet after ten minutes instead of fifteen, or get her home in one hour instead of two. There always is a margin of error. But I like to play the most efficient game possible.
Clifford: What do you notice from experience about a woman’s physiology that may tell you she’s open to an approach ? While an average guy will see a girl who is open in some situations, are there times when you pick up on subtleties that you think most guys miss ? If so, what are they ?
Sleazy: I am pretty sure that the average guy is too much in his own head, which does not allow him to assess the given situation properly. There really is only one main question: how much attention is she trying to get ?
Examples of a girl that is dying for attention are:
– taking up a lot of space on the dance floor
– speaking loudly so that you can overhear her conversation
– taking group pictures
– dancing in a very erotic way, ideally on her own
– raising her hands in the air
Those are just some examples off the top of my head. There are many others, and probably the average community guy can recite long lists of them in his sleep.
Everything else is just a variation with less intensity. The most confident girls may even start a conversation with you and gently touch you before you even get your chance to say something in return. More timid girls may just move away a little bit from their group so that they become a tad more visible.
Clifford: One thing which you should keep in mind when answering these questions is, what would you think is the best way for someone else to develop the skills you’ve developed ? How would you help someone to be able to do what you are doing ?
Sleazy: It’s not really about skills. What I do is an expression of my confidence. To give you an example: recently I went out with a guy one of my friends thought I should get in touch with. He normally does day game, and in clubs he has a tendency to stick around the bar area. However, in terms of success he was already far above the average Joe. He has countless “lays” under his belt, including some threesomes.
We went to a club, and at first he just observed what I was doing. Within forty minutes he was grabbing girls, pulling them in and basically doing what I was doing. Of course, his foundations were excellent. He was already successful with girls and was not afraid to touch them or lead them.
On the other hand, a newbie asking, “Geez, I wonder what Sleazy does exactly ?” is really missing the point. It is not about what you say or do, but about the impression you give. Recently, someone wrote that he has tried some of my stuff, and he could already see that it might work for him. He then asked me, “But I get sweaty palms. How do you deal with this ?” Of course, if you show physiological sings of nervousness, you have no chance of successfully pulling off what I do. But if your “inner game” is great, you will only need a few hints because you have escalated to sex many, many times already.
Maybe the misconception is that some people believe “inner game” is something they can read about and implement the same way they are learning routines. But it really does not work this way. You improve your “inner game” by having successful interactions, and success can be anything. It can be as simple as the experience that the girl was much more friendly to your approach than you imagined. Unfortunately, many people have completely unrealistic expectations and lack the determination to really put in the effort.
By the way, I have received quite a few emails from more experienced guys, saying that reading my posts helped them to take their game to a new level. Once a guy sent me an enthusiastic email in which he wrote that he has read some of my field reports with intrigue, went out, and ended up fingering one girl while making out with another.
Clifford: What does her eye contact and body language say to you from before you approach, during, and in the very first moments of the interaction ?
Sleazy: This is an excellent question and I am glad you are asking it. In fact, I have internalized so many things that I feel as if I just do them. For example, in one case the observation that prompted me to approach her by immediately invading her private space was that her hips were slightly turned away from the people standing near her. This meant that she was paying a greater amount of attention to what was happening in the venue. When people arrive in clubs, they tend to stick together and form very tight circles. But at some point they loosen up, figuratively and literally, and become open to being approached.
Clifford: I’d like to know more about what you’ve internalized. I would assume that if I felt a woman was open to being approached that she would want to be approached by me, but that is not necessarily the case. Are there situations where there are some signs that you pick up on that tell you that she is open to you specifically (and not only when she’s looking at you, which would be obvious ?) In other words, there’s a sense that this girl is one that will work out if you go up to her ? And what might tell you that over a girl who might also be open but not necessarily open to you ?
Sleazy: I don’t care about this problem at all. It’s actually really simple: men usually go after a particular girl. You select your “target,” to stay in the nerdy community language. But the vast majority of girls send out their signals broadly. The more blatant her signals are, the higher the chance that she will be open to any at least semi-competent approach. Other girls are more careful about whom to attract and may make eye contact with that particular guy, or “accidentally” step on his feet. The latter category is fairly obvious, but in the former all I can say is that it does not matter. If she sends out a general signal and does not like you, then you just move on to the next girl. When I get a very blatant signal that is geared specifically toward me then I know it’s a fairly done deal, but those cases are few and far between. Most girls, though, are open to being approached by many guys.
Clifford: In the report you submitted to my list, did you subconsciously or instantly recognize any patterns that told you this would work with her that you had previously seen with others ? In other words, what were the very small signs that led you to believe this would be a success, over perhaps another girl that you may have looked at and decided against approaching ?
Sleazy: It was definitely subconscious, but, as I said, I did recognize patterns.
Clifford: I’d like you to give some thought to the patterns that you’ve picked up on and elaborate as much as possible on these. I know they are mostly very subtle, and many are just picked up from a vibe or other subconscious signal, but try and describe as much (and as many) as possible.
Sleazy: The main indicators are length of eye contact and how quickly she touches you. If she deeply gazes into your eyes while grabbing your ass, then your work is done. If not, then you have to put in the work until you get to this point. I assume that everybody studying pick up is at least vaguely familiar with the escalation ladder, so I won’t go into detail here. It should be sufficient to say that my escalations start at the appropriate point. Many guys don’t do this, and think they have to start at zero. By doing so they not only waste a lot of time, they also risk losing the girl. If she is feeling horny and you don’t escalate she will leave, trying to find a guy that is not afraid to escalate. After all, girls really want to get laid.
Sometimes people comment on my posts that I do a great job at describing my mindset, but reveal little about my actual techniques. Your question seems to have a similar motivation. But those are questions that, to me, feel as if they are somewhat beside the point, because my “technique” is my mindset. Only in hindsight can I try to figure out why I did what I did. But when I am out picking up girls, I do it with an “empty” mind. If you have done martial arts or played some kind of competitive sport then you have probably experienced moments in which you did not consciously have to think, but instead did what you had practiced for so long before. Suddenly you execute the perfect throw by exploiting a relatively minor weakness of your enemy, and it’s just beautiful.
Clifford: That makes perfect sense, and I also try to go out with an “empty mind,” but that doesn’t necessarily transition into results.
Sleazy: Many guys think of results in a binary way: sex or no sex. However, there are many shades of grey. Now you may think that if you try to go out with an empty mind that you may not always get results, but your interactions will arguably be much better as opposed to going out and being completely preoccupied.
Clifford: I think there may be a bit more going on in the mindset, and if you can go into that more that would be great.
Sleazy: I get the impression that we are talking about two different things. As I said, this is a process. I don’t sit at home, trying to hypnotize myself to clear my mind. I have practiced Zen meditation for years, that’s why it is not something I have to work to achieve anymore. It has almost become my default state of mind.
On the other hand, what many community guys describe as “mind sets” are in fact sets of beliefs they want to internalize through repeated self-affirmations. An example is, “I make no excuses for my desires as a man,” to cite one of the most clichéd ones. But the concept seems to be a bit odd. I have yet to see someone who got rid of his limiting beliefs by repeating hackneyed phrases in his mind.
Clifford: The martial arts example is a good one … you may clear your mind and then just go with the flow, but you are in a situation where the opponent is throwing very strong and sophisticated blows and you need to be extremely aware and ready to deal with the unexpected. So while having the right mindset is critical, being ready with what you are going to do (a.k.a. techniques) is a big part of it.
Sleazy: Well, this is where the example falls short. First, there is some margin of error, because women are open to being seduced at least to some extent. Second, you don’t have to get “that one girl.” There are many around. If you don’t get a particular one, then go after the next.
However, if it is of any help, some women have commented that the way I touch them makes them feel that they “really” knew me. One girl once said, after one night, that she felt as if she had known me for months.
Clifford: I think it would be important for the readers to get more detail in that. How do you touch them ? What do you touch first ? Is there a pattern to how you start and advance your kino? What responses do you get in the beginning from the girl that tell you to continue ?
Sleazy: I have written an article about escalations called
Really Smooth Escalations, in which I broke down one of my methods. At first I thought this was just a minor thing, but a lot of people have written me to tell me that this was an eye opener and tremendously improved their game. The gist of the article is that you have to use your push / pulls based on the reaction the girl gives you. There are some guys that just push all the time, others are more competent and use push / pull more in the textbook sense, i.e. quite randomly. But if you execute it based on her reactions, you can escalate quicker than many guys probably think is possible.
Clifford: I am not really clear on what is “pull” in kino for you. I assume “push” is a forward motion, such as touching her somewhere as you explain. “Pull” would then be to pull back or to back away, in which case “pull” and “push” don’t seem like the best words to describe what is happening. It’s more like touch and back off …
Sleazy: “Pull” means escalating and “push” means actively breaking the escalation. A pull can be as simple as increasing your level of touch, and a push could be as innocuous as breaking the make out. Despite what the wording suggests, it is not “touch and back off.”
Once again, this is not unlike martial arts. You just make use of your enemy’s energy. Please note that this is just an analogy, and probably an unfortunate one. I do not view women as “enemies” which you have to defeat. Actually, I believe I am doing them a huge favour by seducing them.
To give more practical examples: if she only seems mildly interested, then I may start by touching her with my fingertips on her hips or her arm. In pretty much every interaction I touch them before I talk to them, and the first feedback I get from them determines how I continue. If she is cold, then I may stop. I will probably just walk off if she is cold in reaction to a really innocent touch of her arm. On the other hand, some women have subtle reactions like moving their pelvis slightly forward if you touch them. This is a huge green light to continue. Sometimes you can just jump into an instant makeout, break it abruptly, and as she wants to come back for more you take her hand and drag her off.
Clifford: What would tell you to move into an instant makeout ? And what advice would you give someone who wasn’t used to doing something like this in order to help them on the road to being able to do this consistently and successfully ?
Sleazy: In order to pull off instant makeouts you have to be supremely confident and act on cues. If you can completely lead her from the start, which is something you notice within a fraction of a second, you can probably also just pull her in and go for the make out. However, I am hesitant to recommend going for an instant makeout. It is really just the icing on the cake. Pull it off wrongly and interactions that could otherwise have gone perfectly well will turn stale instantly. For most guys it’s a high risk / low reward move.
Furthermore, I want to point out that I have no problems starting my kino escalations at the point that seems most appropriate. If I can tell that she is already horny, I may slide my finger in within seconds or whip my cock out and let her whack it for a while before taking this interaction elsewhere.
Clifford: I think you are unnecessarily harsh about “community” elements … the community as I got to know it years ago was a place where there was very little commercial activity, and it was a group of guys trying to improve and learn when there really wasn’t much material out there of any nature or description. I try to keep that perspective on it. It’s definitely not perfect, but negative generalizations aren’t really representative of the majority of the guys I have met through it. There’s no question there are some unsavory characters and some tactics and strategies that aren’t necessarily positive developments, but I think the very nature of the subject matter (picking up women and seduction) makes it inevitable that there will be some undesirable elements attracted to it. But I also think that often (present company excluded, of course) it’s those kind of guys who will have a different setof wiring in them and they will be able to do things that the majority of us wouldn’t or couldn’t do. And that opens the door to expanding our overall knowledge.
Sleazy: I wasn’t around when the community originally formed, but pretty much everything I have encountered or everyone I have met put me off. There is so much wrong with mainstream game that I would not even know where to start, and on top of that, it corrupts people because, for instance, they think they have to tell blatant lies or try to emulate some alleged “guru.” A lot of people put on a pick up persona when they are in the field. Also, I have run into a number of commercial guys in London and can’t say I was overly impressed. The majority seem to still stick to the low-level approach of collecting many numbers and hoping for a “day 2” to materialize.
Clifford: I can certainly understand your feelings after having run into a number of people who are the way you describe. But I would expect you’ve at least had contact with some guys whose comments you liked, particularly because you posted so much on mASF. I assume that if you only kept running into guys who made annoying remarks, you wouldn’t have kept posting.
Sleazy: Sure. But just because you meet a handful of guys you really like interacting with, you can still have a negative opinion of the whole affair. Also, I have barely received annoying remarks. Trolls stayed away from my posts most of the time. You have very few people that really get “game,” and a horde of people who have no clue. This is itself not yet a problem. It becomes an issue, though, when some people pretend to be more than they are, like guys turning pro after losing their virginity, or instructors with approach anxiety. The commercial part of the community seems only intended on ripping off the unsuspecting, and this is part of the reason why I don’t want to associate myself with the seduction community, and prefer not to refer to myself as a “PU.” But let’s not open this can of worms. Mythread on mASF on some dishonest methods in the commercial community had over 50 replies, and spawned posts with similar numbers of replies, so it’s definitely something many people have noticed.
Clifford: I think this concludes our interview nicely. Thanks a lot, Sleazy, for taking the time to answer my questions.
Sleazy: You are very welcome, Clifford. I have genuinely enjoyed this interview, as I got to explore aspects of my game I had not talked about much before. So, thank you very much for providing this opportunity !