Today I am responding to some long ass emails sent to me by James, mostly about how important looks are. I have some comments to make about all this, but first let’s hear from him and take a look at all the material he sent in to support his view.
James: “Here is a collection of parts of posts from forums I and a few others have seen. A lot of them come from advanced forums and people who have got good game.
As a whole it doesn’t make sense. It’s just a collection of posts or parts of posts about how important looks are. It’s a fairly long read but bear with me:
This may not be obvious because there is no voice tone in a forum post, but C is being sarcastic and taking the piss out of community doctrine. C is my wing here in Sao Paulo. And he is one of the good looking guys that I was talking about in a previous post. Some nights C goes to a club and half a dozen girls open him, and he just takes one of them home and that’s that (just happened again last night. C told me he has slept with 80 girls over the last 2 years, and I’ve never seen him open any girls. I’ve seen girls open and game him pretty often though. I also know he’s picky). In all my life, I’ve been approached and gamed by one woman.
Looks matter tremendously. As C told me on the phone today: “Everybody knows that looks matter by the time they’re ten years old. Only the community still wants to believe otherwise.”
I’ve met and befriended a bunch of the best PUA’s in the world. And, I know a lot of naturals who kick ALL their asses. And the reason is, they’re all handsome as fuck: One of my friends just had 5 lays in 6 days (two of them within 1 hour, one of them with a stripper). I know a guy who went out 15 nights one month and pulled 11 SNL’s. I know a salsa dancer who sleeps with 4 new women a week when he’s got the free time to do it. I know a guy who looks like a model and knows NOTHING about women and makes very boring conversation but he has over 80 lays and I’ve seen pictures, they’re all 9’s and 10’s. I know guys who just look at a hot girl, the girl looks at them, and they both know that it’s gonna happen. It’s on and words need not be spoken. This doesn’t happen to average looking guys.
So… there goes the theory that looks don’t matter. It’s simply completely wrong. Look at a hot girl’s Facebook profile – she will have a lot of hot guys in her friends’ list and a lot of them showing off their six packs. My ex was a club girl 9.5, so I know from her and her friends, they go clubbing to catch a hunk. She told me stories of how they meet some guy who’s entertaining and funny and cool but he’s not hot so nobody would go home with that guy. She also told me stories of how some pro football team rolled into the club and most girls went home with one of the athletes (I think 10’s are way easier to catch in day game than in a club).
I have read some of your posts and to be honest…. I LIKE THEM, man….. indeed. Thanks for sharing those 9-10 years of experience.
I read in one of your posts something like: “improve your looks and your vibe”… in order to get good results. Well, I like the fact that you don’t do pickup for a living so I think your advice would be not orientated to “profit making” lol…..
Anyway, about improving your looks… how would you recommend to do it? I mean, plastic surgery (lol), fashion consultant, working out? ‘
Honestly, all of the above, if you can afford it and have a good recommendation for a plastic surgeon, why not? Tony Robbins says these guys can do miracles. I used to live in Dubai and heard the same from the billionaires and sheiks there. It’s little things, man. If the distance between your lip and your nose or between your eye lid and your eye brow is one millimeter more, you’re super hot and if it’s one millimeter less, you’re butt ugly. As I said I got that from a Tony Robbins seminar and he got it from the world’s top beauty surgeon (I forgot his name).
I’m a 7, that’s what my best pictures get rated on hotornot… and I’m not worried enough about this to get plastic surgery. I have my skill where I get infinite pussy with really hot girls now. (even more in Asia but that doesn’t count cause it’s too easy). But if you’re a hot guy, it’s 5 times easier… you don’t have to do any work. Girls will open you, and if you open with something lame, they will game you, escalate on you, bounce you home, SUGGEST SEX, all kinds of shit that NEVER happens to average looking guys.
Looks are EVERYTHING in this game. OK not everything but a solid 80%. Just read C’s lay reports. C is a very good friend of mine and I love him, we’ve been to clubs together and talk on MSN, so I don’t want anybody to take this the wrong way. But his lay reports are ridiculous. They’re the worst I’ve ever seen, from a skill perspective… he does everything wrong you can do wrong. And, he still easily takes down the hottest girls, left and right. They approach him, give him over-the-top signals, SUGGEST SEX, and all kinds of shit. He’s good looking.
And then there’s my friend the photographer I keep mentioning who looks like he’s off the GQ cover and who does 20 lays a month with the models he shoots.
Yeah it’s true that attraction game, displaying certain traits, etc. can create attraction (otherwise there would be no community). However:
Height, weight and good looks “sub-communicate” GOOD GENES. Sex is about replication, and replication is entirely genetic. And that’s why a hot guy can get 5 lays in 6 days with hot girls. I’ve never seen or even heard about an average looking PUA do that.
I happen to have Doc Holiday’s numbers and he’s nowhere close to 5 lays in 6 days. He averages 2 a month. Which I think is pretty good, given that he isn’t attractive looking and looks very young. He also approaches a lot… many of the hot guys I’m talking about don’t approach… they get approached.
I also know that C did his bootcamp in London, and from what he told me, girls were pulling him into their groups while the instructors had to approach.
Women like beautiful men because good looks imply good genes and sex = replication = 100% GENETIC.
I know some handsome guys with tremendous insecurities and zero game who get better results than MPUAs, because they can ask a girl for directions or say “Do you come here often?” and immediately she’s wide eyed and starts smiling and flicking her hair.
Take it from MALE coaches. We have experience picking up hot chicks. Female coaches do NOT and women do NOT know what they really respond to. This is very well known in the community. SOME women who read a lot about this topic may know what they respond to but even then they only know intellectually.
I want to see that female instructor flick her hair when a “hunk who’s dumb as a stomper and has zero personality” walks by. That’s a quote from the famous Marie interview btw, David D interviewed a female dating coach a couple of years ago and she said that kind of guy will do very well with any redblooded woman sexually (even though he won’t get all too far in relationship terms).
It’s more important if you’re good looking or not. I know an Asian who’s short who works out and dresses well and practices game like a motherfucker and hardly ever gets results. I know another Asian who’s short but really good looking and he gets pussy like nobody’s business.
Being good looking is not a handicap in game. Step back a second from the marketing you read and from the community doctrine written by nerds. And ask yourself, might it be a pretty funny assumption that replication value would “decrease your thinslice” in a game that is ENTIRELY about replication?
Real world check: I know about half a dozen guys that have only average game but amazing looks who lay twice as many hot girls a month as the best average looking master PUAs I know. And yeah… the girls would also like to have them as boy-friends.
I’ve spoken to girls about this and all come basically to the same conclusion. If they are out and just want to hook up they try to find the hottest guy they can.
I think K is right, a more attractive guy will undoubtedly get better results than an average looking guy with great game. Even if the attractive guy has bad game.
The goodlooking guy himself as mentioned above said the following… looks matter a lot, in fact it’s almost everything I’d say in one night stand game and casual stuff. (The hotter you are, the easier and the more quality women you can pull from a night club.)
For long term relationships and dates, then yes, your personality and your conversation counts a lot and can overpass looks.
Many one night stands I had were given to me. I had to do literally nothing. Literally. Most hot girls are shallow and especially those in the night clubs – they are looking for a cute face and a six pack.
But for LTR and dating, yes I agree, personality and intelligence, & humour can outshine looks. But I heavily disagree for one night stands.
Ok that’s it for the quotes. The problem that I have with the whole looks issue in the PUA world is that I always hear that if a dog looking guy hasn’t got much else going for him in terms of game/personality, then he won’t get very far. Even though the above quotes are only by 2-3 people, they do suggest that they are alot more important then everyone says they are.
But for me I assume that a goodlooking guy also has personality/game and has got a lot more going for him aside from his looks. Even you as well as others have said about a guy’s character and face molding and that a below average looking guy can turn it around with his personality and character. What if a woman is attracted to him based on looks and she then finds that he has a great personality and character, etc.? His face is going to mold and change as well and he will be even more attractive to her. So in that case the better looking guy will have more success.
(Clfford: Let me interrupt here and remark about the film “Sex, Lies an Videotape” where the main male character is shown as very attractive but as the film goes on and some of his bad character comes out, he becomes more and more unappealing. And I think women will tell you this is the more common occurrence.)
For me it seems that at the end of the day a guy needs both let’s say 100% personality/game AND 100% genteic good facial looks and great body. Any less of either one of them two and the guy will not have as much success as if they were both 100%. This is all quite obvious to me, just like it is obvious that 2 plus 2 makes 4.
I sometimes do think that the face changing/molding can work sometimes in situations where girls will get to know your personality such as at a social event, but not so much if at all in places like bars and clubs.
Also Please bear in mind that all I want at the moment (and for a very long time) is one night stands and even more so friends with benefits. Possibly a open relationship. So it is pretty much just sex.
(Clifford: Just to be clear to those reading this, Cliff’s List is about helping men become more successful with women. I don’t think it should be up to me to decide what your goals are so if you are only looking for no strings situations, that’s up to you. I do think that in order for anyone to be successful with women for whatever it is that they want from them, they need to behave in a manner that pleases women so our view is that this is always coming from a “win-win” perspective.)
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been into all this PUA thing for ages but all those posts in the last email prove what kind of success a guy can get if he’s model looking versus being over weight and pretty much considered ugly.
But even worse than looks is the fact that they go all silly over famous guys as if they are better then any one else. They don’t care about personality, etc.
It’s just fame, looks, money and in some cases jerks who treat them like crap, beat them up, etc.
That’s why assholes like Justin Bieber (read the news about him) get girls. Same as crap bands like One Direction. Lots of girls go crazy because they are 100 % shallow..
All the PUA bootcamps in the world wouldn’t even get anywhere close to the level of success and how easy they can get girls. So they are a complete waste of money.
Not to mention that girls don’t have to do a thing. They don’t have to approach, pay for bootcamps, etc. nothing. They get into clubs for free, free drinks, etc. While guys have to approach, maybe pay lots of money for bootcamps, put much more effort in, don’t get into clubs for free, etc.
Clifford: I do think looks have an importance but at the same time if you don’t have the looks you have to deal with reality and find a solution that will work for you.
I don’t think it makes sense to just give up because you aren’t good looking. And I have known a number of really good looking guys who couldn’t get a date if their life depended on it. It’s not as black and white as some guys think.
The most important thing is how all this affects you – ok, so if you aren’t good looking and women aren’t falling at their feet for you, are you just going to lament the cards you’ve been dealt and envy the hot guys? No, it’s time to be practical and do what you can with what you have. Just because someone else gets laid doesn’t do you any good. There is always better and there is always worse out there – be glad for where you are (which you can look at as your starting point for the rest of your life) and now make a plan to go from where you are to where you want to be.
I don’t disagree with all the comments about looks but I know from experience it’s not just looks. If you blame everything on your genetics you may as well just give up and start chasing 5’s so at least you will have some success.
James: I’ve been doing what I can with what I have for the last 8 years since I heard about the PUA community.
I have practiced and have pretty good game but hardly no results. While guys with no game/personality can get laid all the time because of their looks and without approaching. Same with famous and/or wealthy guys.
Wealth is another thing, I’m pretty poor and would never even be able to afford most PUA companies’ really expensive prices. Not to mention I am not famous and women aren’t falling at my feet.
I would also really like to know how to get girls to approach instead of approaching them in the 100’s and not getting anywhere, even with pretty good game.
Also, unlike most shallow men, a 5 with a nice personality will do for me.
Clifford: Sorry to break it to you, buddy, but BY DEFINITION if you aren’t getting results you don’t have “pretty good game.” What I think you mean is that you almost have pretty good game – you probably just need a little tweaking and adjusting and will likely get results once you have made some small changes. I would suggest you look into finding a local lair and start going out with guys you meet through there. I am sure you will come across a few that have skills as good or better than you and if you work together with one of them, it should make a big difference. And that’s usually free.
What I meant by my comment was that a lot of times guys don’t have results because they go after the hotter women and for most guys both they and the women require a different game (the guys are more on edge because the girl is hotter and the hotter ones often need a different approach from the average ones). So getting 5’s (ie. not as good looking women) should be a lot easier.
In terms of money, pretty much the main thing that you can’t get if you don’t have money is personal training / coaching. There’s plenty of written material that you can get free, not the least of which is the archives of old newsletters & articles on cliffslist.com. The old archives have a ton of fantastic free content including some guys’ whole systems.
While I think it’s a topic for another time, when I think about how to get women to approach you the first thing that comes to mind is having social capital. That’s being someone who is well connected socially, who goes into (for example) a club and a lot of people come and talk to him. Women watch this and it makes a difference. Women want to know “who’s that guy?” when everyone seems to know you and wants to talk to you.
To sum up, though, I am a big believer in being practical. Whether you are good looking or not, if you aren’t getting the results you want you need to think about what you can do differently because obviously what you are currently doing isn’t working. I think I’ve given a number of examples in the last few emails of guys who aren’t good looking who were getting great results, as well as about some good looking guys who were not. I do think there are some superficial things that you should do (such as upgrade your wardrobe and look, make sure your personal hygiene is first class, exercise and diet, etc.) which should have an impact on how you feel about yourself. (If you haven’t read that great inspiring post by Payton Kane that I posted here recently, go back and read it now.) I also can’t help but post this link here which shows you that women are also not always what they are made up to look like: http://www.mandatory.com/2014/02/26/strippers-before-and-after-makeup-is-like-real-life-photoshoppin/
The bottom line, though, is that you should do what you can to improve your appearance but then work at your personality. In an upcoming email, I am going to respond to a reader’s question which I think relates to the above as well, and that is “what is game?” Game is what makes the difference between what an ordinary guy will do and say, and what a guy who has a plan will do and say (and which will get him results). I think when you don’t have the looks, you have to have what falls into the broad definition of “game” in order to have success.
Your comments on the above would be greatly appreciated.