Maybe all this Seduction Community wisdom about not paying for drinks and dinner is wrong after all …
(In Response to Halbmike: So many of these guys are so concerned about hoops, supplication, neging, power, and David DeAngelo’s always say [em]no principle (LTR suicide) that they are hurting themselves. I think the subject of achieving balance here can lead to some interesting and useful discussion. Many people also need to understand that the tactics and communication skills that get you laid initially often have to evolve over time if you want an LTR or want to keep getting laid by the same person. I think this could be a good discussion topic.)[/em]
Totally agreed. I’ve done a fair amount of work with the Mystery Method and the AoS (Art of Seduction) technique, building up stables of women which I eventually cut down to a few top-quality girls … and ultimately a single girl, far above the rest.
Through a long process of trial-and-error, I discovered a lot about my preferences and what I was actually searching for, because the last few girls had quite a bit in common. One of the things that stood out for me was that I discarded the women with whom I saw no LTR-potential. I know a lot of guys bash LTRs, but I personally see it as a healthy and desirable thing.
Anyway … I’m inclined to agree with Halbmike here. I applied the same MM tactics which work so wonderfully in a short-term seduction scenario on these women, and they tended to backfire on me. For instance, I dropped a few hints that I had dated many beautiful women in the past, and this made one of my potential LTRs run for the hills (well, that and one-too-many negs).
Similarly, I’ve had to drop a lot of the MM-stuff that I used in the beginning with my current LTR, if for no other reason than that one has to remain somewhat unpredictable and inconsistent in their behaviors to fully keep another’s attention engaged over a long period of time.
My point is that a bar-pickup is different from an AoS-style seduction, which is different from an extended LTR. Although one leads to another, different tactics are called for. AoS deals with this in the process of “integration,” where you carefully tear down the illusions you created to land the HB in the first place … this has to be done carefully over a period of time, and it isn’t necessarily even always possible. For instance, I imagine Mystery probably has a lot of problems blowing girls away with his larger-than-life aura. But what works so well in a club environment also acts as a barrier to an LTR. Mys … comments ?
The character traits needed to sustain these different lifestyles are quite at odds with each other in many
cases, although interestingly enough, not all. For instance, tip #3: “Soften your start-up,” which calls for self-restraint of one’s temper, is similar to the PUA-principle of “never losing your cool.”
Accepting influence from a woman (tip #4) can be wildly seductive, if one doesn’t allow it to get out of control … let’s face it, most women don’t enjoy being the “boss.”
And I personally found tip #5, “Have High Standards,” to be the most accurate: “the lower the level of tolerance for bad behavior in the beginning of a relationship, the happier the couple is down the road.” And indeed, this was happy news for me, because in my LTR, I make it a point to always be kind, considerate, and gentle, unless she decides to be a fucking bitch and step over the line, in which case she gets anywhere from 20 minutes to 2 days of my “he-needs-anger-management-style” treatment.
(It’s important to note here that I’m internally a very stable person and this intense scolding is really a consciously-applied tactic that I use to “shape” the relationship. If anyone reading this has real anger issues, you should get them resolved … they will lead to no good …)
Per Cliff’s comments, I found the “7 Principles” overall to be a bit overly-simplistic, reeking of today’s pop-psychology articles disseminated as filler in magazines and what-not. I’ve found more applicable techniques in the AoS, and in such unlikely places as Cialdini’s book on Persuasion for marketing people (aptly entitled “Persuasion”).
One of these principles I use constantly to reinforce my LTR’s connection to me. It is called the “Consistency Principle.” Essentially, what it comes down to is that once a woman willingly makes a commitment of any sort, she will tend to filter out conflicting data that would contradict the wisdom of her commitment. Cialdini points out an example of a woman who left her neglectful, unemployed fiance. He eventually managed to convince her that he would change and took some small steps to demonstrate he was serious. After awhile, she made the decision to come back to him.
Well, we can all guess what happened … he quickly reverted back to his old unambitious, loser self and she stayed with him, more determined than ever to “make it work.” Why? Because once she made the difficult decision to go back to him, she is under considerable psychological pressure to be “right” … humans apparently have such a strong need to be right that we tend to filter out all evidence that we aren’t.
Anyway, this is a principle I’ve used in my LTR with a lot of success (if you must know, after my LTR started blowing me some shit about how she was thinking of going back to her husband, I quickly ended things with her, telling her it would never work out, etc. and not responding to any of her emails. After a few weeks, I dropped her a short line and she was extremely eager to start things back up again … she made a conscious decision that she wanted to be with me. I “reluctantly” took her back, and the husband has been out of the picture ever since).
In short, in my transition from PUA to LTRman, I’ve had to make many adjustments, most of which involve “toning down” the alpha-characteristics needed to build a stable and building up a different skillset more suited towards maintaining a more meaningful relationship.
Cliff’s Comment: I am going to take this spot as an opportunity to make a comment on LTR ‘s. I think one of the things that rolls around in the back of my mind when I approach women is that this is in a lot of ways like playing Russian Roulette for me. I believe that one of them may catch me and put an end to my being available. I don’t see many guys thinking about it this way or at least not commenting about it this way. Comments ?
(In Response to GameMaster: The only thing that’s unhealthy in this equation is the public brainwashing that teaches that consciousness raising facilitators like MDMA, LSD, Psylicybin, Mescaline, and other naturally derived brain boosters are unhealthy. They aren’t.)
Eric H.: Bzzt. Wrong answer, but you’d make a good pusher though …
MDMA isn’t remotely naturally derived from anything (its closest natural relative is sassafras oil and that has carcinogenic effects due to the safrole content … and safrole is the stuff they make the MDMA from … getting the hint ?) and MDMA can be deadly if you don’t know what you’re doing.
I’m not saying I support the War on (Some) Drugs propaganda, but that “A” in MDMA stands for “amphetamine,” and the chemical chain that it’s attached to isn’t the greatest thing for your body either. MDMA has many great applications, but saying it isn’t unhealthy when it can easily, from a single dose, raise the body temp to over 108 degrees F and kill you, is simply blinding yourself to the truth.
MDMA does have some good therapeutic uses, but I don’t think that just anyone should be able to dispense it to themselves like aspirin as you seem to support.
LSD isn’t really derived from natural sources, either, unless you consider using highly toxic chemicals, like chlorine gas, to get a single acid from a life robbing fungus to be “natural.” But at least LSD’s only deadly after ingesting 13 grams of the stuff (about 130,000 times a normal dosage for those of you who don’t know …very few drugs have such a high activity and yet low toxicity level).
Your misguided attitude toward drugs is the reason I think that we should change “DEA” to mean “Drug Education Agency” (or leave it as “Drug Enforcement Agency,” but make it so they’re enforcing the quality of the drugs, not shutting down the manufacturers.) If D.A.R.E. were to actually educate about drug *abuse* instead of mere “use,” then we’d likely be in a different boat at this time, and I wouldn’t have to hear someone on TV accuse a pot grower of supporting terrorists, or arguing that we need new prisons…I digress.
BTW, I doubt that R.A.W. shares many of your attitudes, since he also tells people to decide things for themselves as opposed to presenting his opinions as if they were fact …
(In response to Doc: And I start convo about “This guy with the burger is awesome. I respect his courage to try pushing his limits like that. This is wild, bigger than life … this guy’s hamburger blah, blah … what was the wildest, most daring thing you’ve ever done ?” (I’ve now told her what I value … daring, not being afraid of a challenge …)
I like the fact that you are using something in the environment to bring this up. Nice opening for the theme and the challenge.
Next, I like that you are eliciting from her, her wildest experience, rather than trying to impose one of your own on her. So you are requiring her active participation, as she gives you what information and responses you need to use.
Guys, pay attention. Don’t confuse this with some kind of mindless ball-busting. He is being intelligent by stimulating her into revealing useful information andoffering him usable responses while he sets a challenge for her to live up to.
Doc: I am challenging her to meet my values. Now she is totally into this. She scuba dives, maybe will sky dive one day, etc …)
One thing to do here to add even more to the effectiveness is to ask her, “What is your favorite part of that ?” and then watch for her self-anchors, her responses thatyou can anchor for excitement etc, and for her trance words that you can re-incorporate into the canned stuff you say back.
Doc: Go into a Discovery Channel story. “This guy on Discovery who designs amusement park rides … wanna know what the most important things are in designing a new ride ?” She is also a shrink, so we were exchanging stories about weird patients (yeah, shrinks talk about their patients for fun) and she tells me the weirdest experience was of a patient of hers who once ejaculated in her office while talking to her just by fantasizing about her. I was killing myself laughing and busted her balls about being able to make men cum with no contact.
Now, note she told you this because of the overall topic and theme you introduced. She’s handing you stuff !
Doc: I start teasing her. “You must be good. I wonder if it would work on me. I mean, I’ve been with some great lovers, but nobody has ever made me cum without actually touching me. Ha ha.” I cut it short right there after about 1 hour, because I’m getting kind of bored and don’t want to stale out. So I get up and put my jacket on without saying a word. She’s confused and asks if I’m leaving. I say, “That was great but I gotta go … come with me.” Walk out of lounge holding hands. As I go in for a kiss close she pulls back. I laugh. “So all of the sudden you’re shy.” (Remember, this girl is a real player, and eats AFCs alive all the time. So I try again. “Wanna kiss me ?” She pushes me back smiling, because now she knows she is in control and starts saying good bye and walking away. Problem is she is still holding my hand, saying good bye and pulling me as she walks away. I start laughing at her, and she asks why I’m laughing. So I say, “You’re funny. I think you don’t really know what you want, or you don’t have the courage to really take a risk, because you tell me you don’t want to kiss me and then say good bye, but you won’t let go of my hand and are pulling me towards you. What’s up with that ? Ha ha ha.”
Now, this is great. He is establishing his authority in her world by describingexactly what is happening with her.
Doc: She answers, “I’m not sure I want to be intimate with you yet.” I say, “Intimate ? I’m not that easy. I am very selective about who I chose to be intimate with, and that person has to have a lot to offer. I mean, I don’t just want some fast food sex with someone who is only about looks … I want a gourmet meal that is going to be a sensual experience with someone who can turn me on body, mind and soul. And frankly, I don’t know that you are that type of person … you really haven’t given me any reason to even want to be intimate with you !” She asks, “Then why are you here with me ?” I answer, “Do you think that just because I accept to go out with you means that I want to sleep with you ? Ha ha. That’s pretty chauvinistic. Could you imagine if a guy said that? ‘Just because the girl is out on a date with me means that she wants to sleep with me …’ You’re pretty macho for a girl … a real chauvinist pig.” Instantly she is floored. I don’t think that anyone has ever turned this girl down in her entire life … for anything. Especially not for sex. I can see the hamsters in her head spinning in overtime … she has never had this situation. She has always pushed guys away. She is in damage control now.
Great. You are breaking her frame. Well done, and what also makes this work is the accuracy with which you are demonstrating you understand her world.
Doc: She breaks a long silence (I never broke eye contact with her). She says “I have to admit, I feel so vulnerable right now. I don’t know what to do. I mean I like you a lot but I’m afraid that I’ll lose you if I don’t do the right thing. Don’t pull back ok?” Then she leans in for the kiss and invites me to her place. I turn her down and say, “Maybe next time, I’m not sure about you yet.” She calls me the same night and asks me to come over again (testing to see if she can regain control). Turn her down again. She’s disappointed and now she’s losing me, so I throw in “I have some free time tomorrow at noon, bring lunch and you could come by my place.” Closed the deal there and fucked her at my place.
Great job. Guys, this was not just about attitude. It was also about intelligence; understanding her world and showing her he could be a unique experience for her. The intelligence and the attitude have to be there.
(In response to Mystery: And you don’t get in a relationship and you don’t have a chance to give her the doubt she needs by showing her the logical fallacies that exist in her believing in all the nonsense. So what is the entire point of this train of thought ? This: If you look only for the smart girls, you’ll be a very lonely boy.)
I’ve come across a solution to this issue that so far works for me. If a convo is flagging, I do a poll that potentially puts me in the position of an interested skeptic. I try to speak with a gentle manner, so if the HB is embarrassed by her beliefs, I can draw them out of her, but at the same time I do not necessarily come across as a believer, just in case she is someone like me, who finds this stuff to be utter nonsense.
It runs sort of like this: “A friend of mine claims that the majority of people believe in astrology, psychic phenomenon, the supernatural. Do you think this is true ? Do you believe in these things ? Do you read the astrology column ? Would you act on advice in the column ? Have you read any books on the supernatural ? What do you recommend ? Do you think spells work ? Etc.”
I had meant to mention this only after I collected a larger set of results. I’ve only done it twice so far—on a business student (9, Texan) and a law student (9, Belgian). So far, negative. They read the astrology column, but don’t alter their behavior because of it. Both clearly seemed skeptical of the paranormal, so I let the subject drop after the astrology questions.
On the other hand: perhaps we are taking the wrong approach. Perhaps blatantly mismatching them, telling them how ridiculous their belief in the paranormal is, in no uncertain terms, would be the way to go. This would allow us to maintain congruence and set a manly, authoritative frame. I did get into such a debate with an HB, and I do believe that it sparked a lot of attraction (unfortunately, her friends were tired and wanted to drive back home to Canada, though she was keen to take up our invitation to crash at our place for the night).
I would like to know about how many times a person can blow off an HB’s advances and then finally go for a close ?
Through personality, intrigue, story telling, social proof and tidbits of SS patterning, I successfully attracted this HB to me, which I could based on her actions (she started saying goodbye to me when she left this bar we hung out at, whereas before she didn’t; she would ask me to play darts; she would lean against me subtly; she bumped into me; she acted like she was falling down in front of me so I was forced to catch her; etc.)
Anyway, partly out of revenge and partly out of fear of the game playing that I have come to expect from HBs, I became something of a cunt tease. I never reciprocated her advances by going for a number, and would try to get her to go someplace else. She goes through a lot of guys and seems to get whatever she wants from her parents, and manipulates / blows off guys. She once tried to get me jealous (it did work actually, to an extent) by dragging a guy that I was talking to into the bathroom to give him a BJ. She later had a fling with this guy as well.
Once, when I didn’t pursue her when she thought I would, she became upset and cold to me. A couple of weeks later she flirted with me again, and I told her that she had a lot going for her, implying that I was rejecting her. Then to top it off, I asked her father to ask if she had any friends she could help me meet (to get her even more jealous). But like I said, this wasn’t purely motivated by revenge (for the ways women have treated me). I was somewhat following my previous script, as well that has come to expect failure.
After all of this, is there any chance of going for the gold with this one ?
(In Response to Halbmike: Seven Unexpected Keys to a Happy Marriage John Gottman has a 90% success rate at picking out which couples will get divorced and which couples won’t. He has identified 7 keys to an effective marriage. I think # 4 is especially interesting for members of this list.)
This is an interesting subject, although I think it’s important to avoid the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, as well as differentiate between a happy marriage and a marriage which doesn’t end in divorce. I think everyone knows a few marriages which are unhappy, but the couple stays together anyway. A classic example is “staying together for the kids.”
In addition, I personally don’t consider the Seven Keys all that unexpected. Even # 4 which Halbmike says is “especially interesting for members of this list” seems obvious. If a woman never gets her way, she’ll probably leave, unless she has serious self esteem issues. On the other side of the coin, women who always get their way tend to get bored. As in many areas of life, the key is to find the proper balance between the “sound byte” extremes.
There has been a lot of talk when training AFC ‘s to become “PUA’s” about not buying a girl her drinks or paying for her any time until you have slept with, or are dating her. I would like to say this technique doesn’t have a universal application to all of the mentality that a “PUA” should follow.
Recently I was out with this girl who seems to have her head on her shoulders and is very set in some of her values, as she seems to know what she wants out of a man. Her idea of chivalry does include a guy picking up the check if he asks her out for a drink.
The first time we met, I didn’t pay for anything, nor did she ask me to. When I called her to ask her to meet at a local restaurant / bar, she began to tell me how it’s her idea of chivalry to be taken care of. It’s her way of really knowing that she’s being wooed and made to feel special. Being the dumbass that I was, I had her pay for all of her drinks. Hence, giving her the image that I was some cheap asshole that doesn’t have a chivalrous bone in my body.
She then talked to her friends, her sister, mother and a few other people, all of whom completely agreed with her. Then I saw her again after that and had some of my friends along with us. Somehow it came up that I didn’t pay for her drinks last time I asked her out; they disagreed with my statement as well. Then the day after, I talked to even more people about this, almost every person I talked to said something to the sort of “Are you some sort of cheap ass ?”
I don’t know, I mean it seems like everyone just wants to reframe the idea that being nice or chivalrous doesn’t include taking care of her, showing her that you are a provider or whatever.
I have read in the book 48 Laws of Power (Robert Greene) that moving your money around freely gives a lot more of a powerful edge than being cheap. I have only seen evidence in that direction. It seems that all we see in seduction are reframes that say “No, I’m just different than the men you have gone out with that kiss your ass.”
Well, boys, it seems to me that in every aspect of non-SS, non-PUA related material, that the girl wants to feel special and that they do want to have their ass kissed a little bit to know that you know how to make her feel special. So just be careful of how closely you stick to this rule. Almost every tiny aspect of seduction that I have studied in the past 3 years says that women choose their mate because he makes her feel like a princess.
So be careful of how much of a megalomaniac you become, because you just might talk yourself out of her panties by giving off the attitude that you are better than anyone else, or that you are different than anyone else. She’ll figure that out on her own. Your words aren’t what are going to do that. Social Proof is a much more powerful element than words … for example, “I have tons of friends” doesn’t sound / look half as good as your tons of friends walking up to say “Hello” to you while you out with her.
The same thing goes for seduction in my opinion; if you really are different, leave that up for her to see. The words are a lot less powerful than the actions. And often, the less you say about yourself, the more mystery that is created, and thus she wants to be around you more often to find out those things that make you and her have that connection.
I have been practicing the “rules” of PUA for nearly 2.5 years, about 1 year of that I have had great confidence and done everything “by the book,” showing little to no success. After I read 48 Laws of Power and began to practice the ideas that were presented to me in that book, I have had a lot easier time getting to know people and getting a lot more out of life than what I used to.
Some of the examples in the book include “Pose as a friend, work as a spy,” a great little communication tool that will help you understand how to use the words that other people choose to understand what they want and how to get what you want to out of them by appealing to their desires.
Another concept, applicable to the original topic I was discussing: “Despise the free lunch” where it clearly states that not making an object of how much money you spend is typical of many people in great positions of power. Also, “Disdain what you cannot have,” is applicable to this same topic; making an issue out of something you cannot control will bring it to a larger focus and will present your image less powerfully. In the same way, putting too much attention into something such as money will make it look as if you have none. For some, that may be the case, but not making an issue out of that with others with will make it less of a focus.
Overall, living within a certain position of “power” will by itself make the girls know that you are in charge, and you won’t have to stoop to being a prick who won’t pay for her drinks or whatever.
Remember, girls will have sex with you because they feel that they would be comfortable in a relationship with you. If you don’t meet the criteria of providing for her the way that she believes she needs to be provided for, you probably aren’t gonna get laid as easily. We are the men, we hold the cards, we are the “kings of the jungle” who provide for our young and our mate.
I know that there are a lot of people that may be confused by this post because of the fact that so many different reports say not to pay for her or whatever. The main idea I am trying to convey here is not buying her drinks or whatever to get something from her. It’s just a simple way of displaying yourself as a provider, and not some cheap (or even worse, poor) dude.
Tony Montana (Scarface): “In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.” I would like to hear comments about this, perhaps some of what I said may be incorrect, but I would like to hear reasonable discussions rebutting it, rather than a “flame.”
Cliff’s Comment: I once went out with a very hot little number that I had met at a trade show. She offered to pay for herself at the end of the meal and without going into details, I went along with it. I later found out from various sources that this was a test and that I had failed miserably. She wasn’t interested in getting together again. My usual way of dealing with this (which I knew at the time and didn’t use for no explainable reason), is that if they offer to pay I tell them that it is my pleasure to pay for them but if they want to pay, no problem. I make sure they understand that it is meaningless to me either way, so I take the importance out of the situation. I think it’s not worth it to make an issue of this—the bigger issue is that this discussion seems to come at the situation from the “dating frame” and not a “friends with benefits frame.”